Public Image Limited

General music discussion.
Kory
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Re: Public Image Limited

Post by Kory » 06 Sep 2019, 11:14pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 8:07pm
Kory wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 7:43pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 7:10pm
Kory wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 6:35pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
03 Sep 2019, 2:14pm


Unfortunately yes. Not sure when, but he crossed the line from curmudgeon to asshole.
I think a lot of interviewers would say he crossed that line back at the beginning of PiL.
Speaking of asshole singers, last night I finished David J's Bauhaus memoir (mentioned above). Peter Murphy comes off as having some serious personality problems. He'd go from pleasant to deeply despondent and possibly suicidal to, as David J writes, Mr. Hyde. Totally belligerent to everyone around, massive chip on his shoulder, paranoid, treating the rest of the band as side men. Yet, J certainly doesn't deny his ability as a mesmerizing front man. But the psychological cost of being around him was so great that the rest of them nixed a world tour that would have made them all quite wealthy. If J is accurate, there's some psychological illness at work there.
The recent reports of him throwing bottles at his audience would back this up.
After I finished the book, I revisited an interview that a friend of mine conducted with PM around ten years ago, and he was utterly charming. It was done as a Skype because PM lives in Turkey, so my buddy sent me the video, and my memory was that he seemed in great humour, which is how the text read. It's hard not to think that there's something biochemical going on there.
Poor guy. I hope he has some kind of support, however effective it might be.
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Absolutely. Here's another collection of words:

Table salt (spoon hinge)
Octopus (Ukraine)
St. Petersburg (arms)
Ginger beer (cauliflower)
Pat Sajak (PSak)
Lamp post (self evident)
Florida Timeshare (ditto)
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Developers (Developers Developers)
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Marky Dread
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Re: Public Image Limited

Post by Marky Dread » 07 Sep 2019, 6:24am

Kory wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 6:35pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
03 Sep 2019, 2:14pm
Heston wrote:
03 Sep 2019, 2:02pm
I'm talking about him as a person, been a wanker for years now.
Unfortunately yes. Not sure when, but he crossed the line from curmudgeon to asshole.
I think a lot of interviewers would say he crossed that line back at the beginning of PiL.
I will add an awful lot of interviewers from 1978 were total wankers. So many had it in for John and tried all sorts of character assassinations on him. It's no wonder his guard was up a lot of the time.
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Dr. Medulla
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Re: Public Image Limited

Post by Dr. Medulla » 07 Sep 2019, 7:00am

Marky Dread wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 6:24am
Kory wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 6:35pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
03 Sep 2019, 2:14pm
Heston wrote:
03 Sep 2019, 2:02pm
I'm talking about him as a person, been a wanker for years now.
Unfortunately yes. Not sure when, but he crossed the line from curmudgeon to asshole.
I think a lot of interviewers would say he crossed that line back at the beginning of PiL.
I will add an awful lot of interviewers from 1978 were total wankers. So many had it in for John and tried all sorts of character assassinations on him. It's no wonder his guard was up a lot of the time.
I can certainly appreciate and sympathize that Lydon was seriously traumatized by 1977 in the wake of Grundy. He was the face of the band, the one with the weird name, and quick to take the bait. He got the shit from the public and the ravenous scandal press. If something permanently broke in him, that's horrible. A shame that he never seemingly recovered from that.
Poonty, boloques, juffmunch, carpoo, snazellfonks.

Marky Dread
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Re: Public Image Limited

Post by Marky Dread » 07 Sep 2019, 7:07am

Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 7:00am
Marky Dread wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 6:24am
Kory wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 6:35pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
03 Sep 2019, 2:14pm
Heston wrote:
03 Sep 2019, 2:02pm
I'm talking about him as a person, been a wanker for years now.
Unfortunately yes. Not sure when, but he crossed the line from curmudgeon to asshole.
I think a lot of interviewers would say he crossed that line back at the beginning of PiL.
I will add an awful lot of interviewers from 1978 were total wankers. So many had it in for John and tried all sorts of character assassinations on him. It's no wonder his guard was up a lot of the time.
I can certainly appreciate and sympathize that Lydon was seriously traumatized by 1977 in the wake of Grundy. He was the face of the band, the one with the weird name, and quick to take the bait. He got the shit from the public and the ravenous scandal press. If something permanently broke in him, that's horrible. A shame that he never seemingly recovered from that.
I'm not sure that broke him. John was smart and knew how to play the game. He was getting shot from all sides his band/manager/the press etc. Fans expecting PiL to be the Sex Pistols mk II all were very wrong about John. He utilized what he had to great effect and forged ahead.

I don't like his actions much these days but the Rotten/Lydon of '78 was an immense presence.
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Re: Public Image Limited

Post by Dr. Medulla » 07 Sep 2019, 7:13am

Marky Dread wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 7:07am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 7:00am
Marky Dread wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 6:24am
Kory wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 6:35pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
03 Sep 2019, 2:14pm


Unfortunately yes. Not sure when, but he crossed the line from curmudgeon to asshole.
I think a lot of interviewers would say he crossed that line back at the beginning of PiL.
I will add an awful lot of interviewers from 1978 were total wankers. So many had it in for John and tried all sorts of character assassinations on him. It's no wonder his guard was up a lot of the time.
I can certainly appreciate and sympathize that Lydon was seriously traumatized by 1977 in the wake of Grundy. He was the face of the band, the one with the weird name, and quick to take the bait. He got the shit from the public and the ravenous scandal press. If something permanently broke in him, that's horrible. A shame that he never seemingly recovered from that.
I'm not sure that broke him. John was smart and knew how to play the game. He was getting shot from all sides his band/manager/the press etc. Fans expecting PiL to be the Sex Pistols mk II all were very wrong about John. He utilized what he had to great effect and forged ahead.

I don't like his actions much these days but the Rotten/Lydon of '78 was an immense presence.
Career-wise, yes, he was able to make it functional and productive. I'm thinking more as a person, going from curmudgeon to asshole.
Poonty, boloques, juffmunch, carpoo, snazellfonks.

Marky Dread
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Re: Public Image Limited

Post by Marky Dread » 07 Sep 2019, 7:19am

Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 7:13am
Marky Dread wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 7:07am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 7:00am
Marky Dread wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 6:24am
Kory wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 6:35pm


I think a lot of interviewers would say he crossed that line back at the beginning of PiL.
I will add an awful lot of interviewers from 1978 were total wankers. So many had it in for John and tried all sorts of character assassinations on him. It's no wonder his guard was up a lot of the time.
I can certainly appreciate and sympathize that Lydon was seriously traumatized by 1977 in the wake of Grundy. He was the face of the band, the one with the weird name, and quick to take the bait. He got the shit from the public and the ravenous scandal press. If something permanently broke in him, that's horrible. A shame that he never seemingly recovered from that.
I'm not sure that broke him. John was smart and knew how to play the game. He was getting shot from all sides his band/manager/the press etc. Fans expecting PiL to be the Sex Pistols mk II all were very wrong about John. He utilized what he had to great effect and forged ahead.

I don't like his actions much these days but the Rotten/Lydon of '78 was an immense presence.
Career-wise, yes, he was able to make it functional and productive. I'm thinking more as a person, going from curmudgeon to asshole.
No not in '78. For me at least John became a caricature of himself much later on.
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Dr. Medulla
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Re: Public Image Limited

Post by Dr. Medulla » 07 Sep 2019, 7:54am

Marky Dread wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 7:19am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 7:13am
Marky Dread wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 7:07am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 7:00am
Marky Dread wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 6:24am


I will add an awful lot of interviewers from 1978 were total wankers. So many had it in for John and tried all sorts of character assassinations on him. It's no wonder his guard was up a lot of the time.
I can certainly appreciate and sympathize that Lydon was seriously traumatized by 1977 in the wake of Grundy. He was the face of the band, the one with the weird name, and quick to take the bait. He got the shit from the public and the ravenous scandal press. If something permanently broke in him, that's horrible. A shame that he never seemingly recovered from that.
I'm not sure that broke him. John was smart and knew how to play the game. He was getting shot from all sides his band/manager/the press etc. Fans expecting PiL to be the Sex Pistols mk II all were very wrong about John. He utilized what he had to great effect and forged ahead.

I don't like his actions much these days but the Rotten/Lydon of '78 was an immense presence.
Career-wise, yes, he was able to make it functional and productive. I'm thinking more as a person, going from curmudgeon to asshole.
No not in '78. For me at least John became a caricature of himself much later on.
But that's the question—when did it happen (and why)? If it's not related to what happened in '77 or '78, what changed?
Poonty, boloques, juffmunch, carpoo, snazellfonks.

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Re: Public Image Limited

Post by Silent Majority » 07 Sep 2019, 8:08am

Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 7:54am
Marky Dread wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 7:19am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 7:13am
Marky Dread wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 7:07am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 7:00am


I can certainly appreciate and sympathize that Lydon was seriously traumatized by 1977 in the wake of Grundy. He was the face of the band, the one with the weird name, and quick to take the bait. He got the shit from the public and the ravenous scandal press. If something permanently broke in him, that's horrible. A shame that he never seemingly recovered from that.
I'm not sure that broke him. John was smart and knew how to play the game. He was getting shot from all sides his band/manager/the press etc. Fans expecting PiL to be the Sex Pistols mk II all were very wrong about John. He utilized what he had to great effect and forged ahead.

I don't like his actions much these days but the Rotten/Lydon of '78 was an immense presence.
Career-wise, yes, he was able to make it functional and productive. I'm thinking more as a person, going from curmudgeon to asshole.
No not in '78. For me at least John became a caricature of himself much later on.
But that's the question—when did it happen (and why)? If it's not related to what happened in '77 or '78, what changed?
Years of having his arse kisser?
There's a lot of wreckage in the ravine

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Marky Dread
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Re: Public Image Limited

Post by Marky Dread » 07 Sep 2019, 8:15am

Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 7:54am
Marky Dread wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 7:19am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 7:13am
Marky Dread wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 7:07am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 7:00am


I can certainly appreciate and sympathize that Lydon was seriously traumatized by 1977 in the wake of Grundy. He was the face of the band, the one with the weird name, and quick to take the bait. He got the shit from the public and the ravenous scandal press. If something permanently broke in him, that's horrible. A shame that he never seemingly recovered from that.
I'm not sure that broke him. John was smart and knew how to play the game. He was getting shot from all sides his band/manager/the press etc. Fans expecting PiL to be the Sex Pistols mk II all were very wrong about John. He utilized what he had to great effect and forged ahead.

I don't like his actions much these days but the Rotten/Lydon of '78 was an immense presence.
Career-wise, yes, he was able to make it functional and productive. I'm thinking more as a person, going from curmudgeon to asshole.
No not in '78. For me at least John became a caricature of himself much later on.
But that's the question—when did it happen (and why)? If it's not related to what happened in '77 or '78, what changed?
Pick your own year. For me I say 1986 when Cook & Jones sided with John and they won the money/royalties from McLaren/Glitterbest and the Swindle court case.
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Dr. Medulla
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Re: Public Image Limited

Post by Dr. Medulla » 07 Sep 2019, 8:28am

Marky Dread wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 8:15am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 7:54am
But that's the question—when did it happen (and why)? If it's not related to what happened in '77 or '78, what changed?
Pick your own year. For me I say 1986 when Cook & Jones sided with John and they won the money/royalties from McLaren/Glitterbest and the Swindle court case.
So victory over his enemy made him a shithead? That would seem like a liberating moment to me, but who knows.
Silent Majority wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 8:08am
Years of having his arse kisser?
Or, related, maybe when Levene left and PiL was fully the Johnny Rotten show. He was always the star, but now there was definitely no sharing the spotlight.
Poonty, boloques, juffmunch, carpoo, snazellfonks.

Marky Dread
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Re: Public Image Limited

Post by Marky Dread » 07 Sep 2019, 9:04am

Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 8:28am
Marky Dread wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 8:15am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 7:54am
But that's the question—when did it happen (and why)? If it's not related to what happened in '77 or '78, what changed?
Pick your own year. For me I say 1986 when Cook & Jones sided with John and they won the money/royalties from McLaren/Glitterbest and the Swindle court case.
So victory over his enemy made him a shithead? That would seem like a liberating moment to me, but who knows.
Silent Majority wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 8:08am
Years of having his arse kisser?
Or, related, maybe when Levene left and PiL was fully the Johnny Rotten show. He was always the star, but now there was definitely no sharing the spotlight.
John is painted the bad guy when the likes of Wobble and Levene left PiL but Wobble was no saint and Levene a junkie.

Victory didn't make him a shithead but he always appeared worse when he wasn't fighting against stuff. Battle over and victory won John shouts loudest and then for years later let's everyone know.
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Re: Public Image Limited

Post by Dr. Medulla » 07 Sep 2019, 9:14am

Marky Dread wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 9:04am
John is painted the bad guy when the likes of Wobble and Levene left PiL but Wobble was no saint and Levene a junkie.
Of course. I only meant that they were forceful personalities in the group that battled each other. Maybe not keeping Lydon in check per se, but there was still the fiction of the band as a company of equals. Once Lydon was the last man standing, he had nobody to answer to.
Victory didn't make him a shithead but he always appeared worse when he wasn't fighting against stuff. Battle over and victory won John shouts loudest and then for years later let's everyone know.
Okay, I see what you mean. Everything sort of becomes past tense from that point, about how he was done wrong and beat the bastards.
Poonty, boloques, juffmunch, carpoo, snazellfonks.

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Re: Public Image Limited

Post by Marky Dread » 07 Sep 2019, 9:35am

Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 9:14am
Marky Dread wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 9:04am
John is painted the bad guy when the likes of Wobble and Levene left PiL but Wobble was no saint and Levene a junkie.
Of course. I only meant that they were forceful personalities in the group that battled each other. Maybe not keeping Lydon in check per se, but there was still the fiction of the band as a company of equals. Once Lydon was the last man standing, he had nobody to answer to.
Victory didn't make him a shithead but he always appeared worse when he wasn't fighting against stuff. Battle over and victory won John shouts loudest and then for years later let's everyone know.
Okay, I see what you mean. Everything sort of becomes past tense from that point, about how he was done wrong and beat the bastards.
Yep that's how I see things. John had an assured kind of us versus them arrogance at first and he said stuff against those in power that to my young ears made a lot of sense. But then after the court case it appeared to be all me me me oh clever me.
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Re: Public Image Limited

Post by IkarisOne » 07 Sep 2019, 12:33pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 9:14am
Marky Dread wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 9:04am
John is painted the bad guy when the likes of Wobble and Levene left PiL but Wobble was no saint and Levene a junkie.
Of course. I only meant that they were forceful personalities in the group that battled each other. Maybe not keeping Lydon in check per se, but there was still the fiction of the band as a company of equals. Once Lydon was the last man standing, he had nobody to answer to.
Victory didn't make him a shithead but he always appeared worse when he wasn't fighting against stuff. Battle over and victory won John shouts loudest and then for years later let's everyone know.
Okay, I see what you mean. Everything sort of becomes past tense from that point, about how he was done wrong and beat the bastards.
Levene and Wob were both off their nuts with the smack. But Levene-- for all his countless faults-- supplied the magic. It was never recaptured no matter how great McGeoch and Edmonds were/are. You can hear vague echoes in some of Levene's later stuff but it's clear the Muses abandoned him.

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Re: Public Image Limited

Post by Dr. Medulla » 07 Sep 2019, 12:55pm

IkarisOne wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 12:33pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 9:14am
Marky Dread wrote:
07 Sep 2019, 9:04am
John is painted the bad guy when the likes of Wobble and Levene left PiL but Wobble was no saint and Levene a junkie.
Of course. I only meant that they were forceful personalities in the group that battled each other. Maybe not keeping Lydon in check per se, but there was still the fiction of the band as a company of equals. Once Lydon was the last man standing, he had nobody to answer to.
Victory didn't make him a shithead but he always appeared worse when he wasn't fighting against stuff. Battle over and victory won John shouts loudest and then for years later let's everyone know.
Okay, I see what you mean. Everything sort of becomes past tense from that point, about how he was done wrong and beat the bastards.
Levene and Wob were both off their nuts with the smack. But Levene-- for all his countless faults-- supplied the magic. It was never recaptured no matter how great McGeoch and Edmonds were/are. You can hear vague echoes in some of Levene's later stuff but it's clear the Muses abandoned him.
After Lydon split from Wobble and Levene, his work never again seemed pathbreaking or iconoclastic or whatever. Where others used to await his records to wonder what was new, how PiL was going shake things up, now he was just adding to or confirming what was already out there. The McGeoch/Edmonds PiL made fine enough alternative pop records, but musically it wasn't terribly distinct, apart from Lydon's voice. "Rise" was the song that changed my life—I'd been a faithful Top 40 drone until I heard it and dove headfirst into all manner of alternative music—but I can now tell that it was just good alternative pop amongst all kinds of other alternative pop at the time. Maybe Marky's right that slaying McLaren in the court case took the fire out of him and he didn't again surround himself with people who helped him push himself, but it became a lot more, well, superficial, including the exaggerated Rotten persona. Enh. We'll always have '76–82.
Poonty, boloques, juffmunch, carpoo, snazellfonks.

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