Canadian politics gets innerestin'

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Re: Canadian politics gets innerestin'

Post by Rat Patrol » 28 Sep 2017, 3:58pm

http://nationalpost.com/news/politics/c ... ng-offence

Canada: still grasping at straws at how to fill its post- Rob Ford entertainment vacuum.
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Re: Canadian politics gets innerestin'

Post by Dr. Medulla » 28 Sep 2017, 4:22pm

Rat Patrol wrote:
28 Sep 2017, 3:58pm
http://nationalpost.com/news/politics/c ... ng-offence

Canada: still grasping at straws at how to fill its post- Rob Ford entertainment vacuum.
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Re: Canadian politics gets innerestin'

Post by Dr. Medulla » 01 Oct 2017, 4:01pm

Canada's social democrats elected as leader Jagmeet Singh, a Sikh with full beard and turban. He's also only 38. I honestly don't know how left he sits in the social democrat spectrum—my guess is on the right given that I haven't heard much about him having "crazy ideas"—but I do like having someone quite visibly outside the old white, Christian norm, especially at a time when racists are feeling more confident about emerging from the shadows. He's shown that he can handle racist hecklers well, without inflaming tensions. All told, I think the NDP did better than the Conservatives in picking leaders* who can match up against the beautiful prince next time around.

* The Conservatives picked a doughy Harperite this spring, but one who knows how to smile. So far, he's been pretty weak, embracing faux outrage than asserting any kind of principled difference. Kinda like the GOP, actually.
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Re: Canadian politics gets innerestin'

Post by Dr. Medulla » 19 Oct 2017, 7:03am

And, for anyone who fetishizes Canada for being all tolerant and shit toward Muslims compared to the US or Europe, here's a big ol' Quebec shit sandwich: http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/quebec-n ... -1.4360942

That it's about secularism and not about making Muslims feel unaccepted is the thinnest of fig leaves, as Catholic symbolism is all over that province. For example, in the National Assembly (the legislature) in Quebec City:
Image

I can't see the law surviving a court challenge, but this issue is an ugly alliance between normally socially liberal Quebeckers and all the normally anti-francophone and anti-Muslim bigots in English Canada. Strange, rancid bedfellows.
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Re: Canadian politics gets innerestin'

Post by JennyB » 19 Oct 2017, 9:07am

Dr. Medulla wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 7:03am
And, for anyone who fetishizes Canada for being all tolerant and shit toward Muslims compared to the US or Europe, here's a big ol' Quebec shit sandwich: http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/quebec-n ... -1.4360942

That it's about secularism and not about making Muslims feel unaccepted is the thinnest of fig leaves, as Catholic symbolism is all over that province. For example, in the National Assembly (the legislature) in Quebec City:
Image

I can't see the law surviving a court challenge, but this issue is an ugly alliance between normally socially liberal Quebeckers and all the normally anti-francophone and anti-Muslim bigots in English Canada. Strange, rancid bedfellows.
Would I be wrong to say that Quebec is the Texas of Canada?
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Re: Canadian politics gets innerestin'

Post by Dr. Medulla » 19 Oct 2017, 9:45am

JennyB wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 9:07am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 7:03am
And, for anyone who fetishizes Canada for being all tolerant and shit toward Muslims compared to the US or Europe, here's a big ol' Quebec shit sandwich: http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/quebec-n ... -1.4360942

That it's about secularism and not about making Muslims feel unaccepted is the thinnest of fig leaves, as Catholic symbolism is all over that province. For example, in the National Assembly (the legislature) in Quebec City:
Image

I can't see the law surviving a court challenge, but this issue is an ugly alliance between normally socially liberal Quebeckers and all the normally anti-francophone and anti-Muslim bigots in English Canada. Strange, rancid bedfellows.
Would I be wrong to say that Quebec is the Texas of Canada?
No, that's not quite right because in most respects Quebec is quite socially liberal and secular with regards to things like sex, drugs, work, and education. It's what gives a law like this a certain plausible deniability. Quebec—francophone Quebec—is quite insular, simultaneously snobbish and perceiving itself besieged. Amongst people "who belong," it's quite laid back and tolerant. But there is a heightened consciousness for those who don't belong.
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Re: Canadian politics gets innerestin'

Post by JennyB » 19 Oct 2017, 9:53am

Dr. Medulla wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 9:45am
JennyB wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 9:07am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 7:03am
And, for anyone who fetishizes Canada for being all tolerant and shit toward Muslims compared to the US or Europe, here's a big ol' Quebec shit sandwich: http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/quebec-n ... -1.4360942

That it's about secularism and not about making Muslims feel unaccepted is the thinnest of fig leaves, as Catholic symbolism is all over that province. For example, in the National Assembly (the legislature) in Quebec City:
Image

I can't see the law surviving a court challenge, but this issue is an ugly alliance between normally socially liberal Quebeckers and all the normally anti-francophone and anti-Muslim bigots in English Canada. Strange, rancid bedfellows.
Would I be wrong to say that Quebec is the Texas of Canada?
No, that's not quite right because in most respects Quebec is quite socially liberal and secular with regards to things like sex, drugs, work, and education. It's what gives a law like this a certain plausible deniability. Quebec—francophone Quebec—is quite insular, simultaneously snobbish and perceiving itself besieged. Amongst people "who belong," it's quite laid back and tolerant. But there is a heightened consciousness for those who don't belong.
Gotcha. Plus, Celine Dion. So they are weird.
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Re: Canadian politics gets innerestin'

Post by Dr. Medulla » 19 Oct 2017, 10:03am

JennyB wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 9:53am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 9:45am
JennyB wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 9:07am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 7:03am
And, for anyone who fetishizes Canada for being all tolerant and shit toward Muslims compared to the US or Europe, here's a big ol' Quebec shit sandwich: http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/quebec-n ... -1.4360942

That it's about secularism and not about making Muslims feel unaccepted is the thinnest of fig leaves, as Catholic symbolism is all over that province. For example, in the National Assembly (the legislature) in Quebec City:
Image

I can't see the law surviving a court challenge, but this issue is an ugly alliance between normally socially liberal Quebeckers and all the normally anti-francophone and anti-Muslim bigots in English Canada. Strange, rancid bedfellows.
Would I be wrong to say that Quebec is the Texas of Canada?
No, that's not quite right because in most respects Quebec is quite socially liberal and secular with regards to things like sex, drugs, work, and education. It's what gives a law like this a certain plausible deniability. Quebec—francophone Quebec—is quite insular, simultaneously snobbish and perceiving itself besieged. Amongst people "who belong," it's quite laid back and tolerant. But there is a heightened consciousness for those who don't belong.
Gotcha. Plus, Celine Dion. So they are weird.
Very weird. Unfortunately, moving here has made less sympathetic to francophones collectively because of how they regard non-francophones (or, worse, francophones from places like Haiti or Algeria).
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Re: Canadian politics gets innerestin'

Post by JennyB » 19 Oct 2017, 10:40am

Dr. Medulla wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 10:03am
JennyB wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 9:53am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 9:45am
JennyB wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 9:07am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 7:03am
And, for anyone who fetishizes Canada for being all tolerant and shit toward Muslims compared to the US or Europe, here's a big ol' Quebec shit sandwich: http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/quebec-n ... -1.4360942

That it's about secularism and not about making Muslims feel unaccepted is the thinnest of fig leaves, as Catholic symbolism is all over that province. For example, in the National Assembly (the legislature) in Quebec City:
Image

I can't see the law surviving a court challenge, but this issue is an ugly alliance between normally socially liberal Quebeckers and all the normally anti-francophone and anti-Muslim bigots in English Canada. Strange, rancid bedfellows.
Would I be wrong to say that Quebec is the Texas of Canada?
No, that's not quite right because in most respects Quebec is quite socially liberal and secular with regards to things like sex, drugs, work, and education. It's what gives a law like this a certain plausible deniability. Quebec—francophone Quebec—is quite insular, simultaneously snobbish and perceiving itself besieged. Amongst people "who belong," it's quite laid back and tolerant. But there is a heightened consciousness for those who don't belong.
Gotcha. Plus, Celine Dion. So they are weird.
Very weird. Unfortunately, moving here has made less sympathetic to francophones collectively because of how they regard non-francophones (or, worse, francophones from places like Haiti or Algeria).
They may be Francophones, but they are BROWN Francophones. We have to draw the line somewhere!
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Re: Canadian politics gets innerestin'

Post by Dr. Medulla » 19 Oct 2017, 10:43am

JennyB wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 10:40am
They may be Francophones, but they are BROWN Francophones. We have to draw the line somewhere!
What's amusing (darkly, of course) is that, to those in the know, Algerians and Haitians speak more authentic French French than the Quebecois. But in more pertinent ways, they can never be authentically French *wink wink*.
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Re: Canadian politics gets innerestin'

Post by revbob » 19 Oct 2017, 8:30pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 10:43am
JennyB wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 10:40am
They may be Francophones, but they are BROWN Francophones. We have to draw the line somewhere!
What's amusing (darkly, of course) is that, to those in the know, Algerians and Haitians speak more authentic French French than the Quebecois. But in more pertinent ways, they can never be authentically French *wink wink*.
My experience with people from Quebec is mostly limited to Montreal. Montreal is pretty open and kimd of progressive. Ive known plenty of people from there over the years who I would label as being liberal to leftist on the political scale. Although some of them still didnt get it when the Mohawk people and other indigenous peoples in St James Bay and such were trying to assert their autonomy.

I think like in a lot of places in North America the further you go from the larger population centers the more conservative and white people get. And back during the last big go round of Quebecois nationalism there you had the Lucien Bouchard's and (forget the other old white guy) saying white Quebecers had to have more babies.

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Re: Canadian politics gets innerestin'

Post by Dr. Medulla » 19 Oct 2017, 9:17pm

revbob wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 8:30pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 10:43am
JennyB wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 10:40am
They may be Francophones, but they are BROWN Francophones. We have to draw the line somewhere!
What's amusing (darkly, of course) is that, to those in the know, Algerians and Haitians speak more authentic French French than the Quebecois. But in more pertinent ways, they can never be authentically French *wink wink*.
My experience with people from Quebec is mostly limited to Montreal. Montreal is pretty open and kimd of progressive. Ive known plenty of people from there over the years who I would label as being liberal to leftist on the political scale. Although some of them still didnt get it when the Mohawk people and other indigenous peoples in St James Bay and such were trying to assert their autonomy.
Yeah, there's Montreal and there's the rest of Quebec. Super cosmopolitan versus … not. But even lefty Quebeckers have a hard time on issues of race and religion. I remember during the '95 sovereignty referendum, Quebec's First Nations had their own vote on whether they would want to remain in Canada or an independent Quebec. The French separatists quickly said that Indigenous people's wishes were irrelevant. Yeah, you're principled bastards, ain't ya?
I think like in a lot of places in North America the further you go from the larger population centers the more conservative and white people get. And back during the last big go round of Quebecois nationalism there you had the Lucien Bouchard's and (forget the other old white guy) saying white Quebecers had to have more babies.
Very much so. The more rural you get, the more insular you get, which, as you said, describes pretty much any region. That '95 referendum was ugly and comical all at once. Comical in the separatists telling people that sovereignty would be a "magic wand" that resets everything, no holdover problems whatsoever. Grow the fuck up. Ugly in the racism, such as toward Aboriginal people and blaming the loss on anglos and Jews. Certainly, not all separatists are that ugly and narrow minded, but the movement welcomes those xenophobes.
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Re: Canadian politics gets innerestin'

Post by revbob » 19 Oct 2017, 9:39pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 9:17pm
revbob wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 8:30pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 10:43am
JennyB wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 10:40am
They may be Francophones, but they are BROWN Francophones. We have to draw the line somewhere!
What's amusing (darkly, of course) is that, to those in the know, Algerians and Haitians speak more authentic French French than the Quebecois. But in more pertinent ways, they can never be authentically French *wink wink*.
My experience with people from Quebec is mostly limited to Montreal. Montreal is pretty open and kimd of progressive. Ive known plenty of people from there over the years who I would label as being liberal to leftist on the political scale. Although some of them still didnt get it when the Mohawk people and other indigenous peoples in St James Bay and such were trying to assert their autonomy.
Yeah, there's Montreal and there's the rest of Quebec. Super cosmopolitan versus … not. But even lefty Quebeckers have a hard time on issues of race and religion. I remember during the '95 sovereignty referendum, Quebec's First Nations had their own vote on whether they would want to remain in Canada or an independent Quebec. The French separatists quickly said that Indigenous people's wishes were irrelevant. Yeah, you're principled bastards, ain't ya?
I think like in a lot of places in North America the further you go from the larger population centers the more conservative and white people get. And back during the last big go round of Quebecois nationalism there you had the Lucien Bouchard's and (forget the other old white guy) saying white Quebecers had to have more babies.
Very much so. The more rural you get, the more insular you get, which, as you said, describes pretty much any region. That '95 referendum was ugly and comical all at once. Comical in the separatists telling people that sovereignty would be a "magic wand" that resets everything, no holdover problems whatsoever. Grow the fuck up. Ugly in the racism, such as toward Aboriginal people and blaming the loss on anglos and Jews. Certainly, not all separatists are that ugly and narrow minded, but the movement welcomes those xenophobes.
Yeah I used to follow it rather closely and was somewhat sympathetic to the idea of a sovereign Quebec but that shit in the early mid 90s really opened my eyes to rhe reality of the movement, whether or not that represented the majority opinion it clearly represented the power structure that would have taken over a soveriegn Quebec.

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Re: Canadian politics gets innerestin'

Post by Dr. Medulla » 19 Oct 2017, 9:53pm

revbob wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 9:39pm
Yeah I used to follow it rather closely and was somewhat sympathetic to the idea of a sovereign Quebec but that shit in the early mid 90s really opened my eyes to rhe reality of the movement, whether or not that represented the majority opinion it clearly represented the power structure that would have taken over a soveriegn Quebec.
I was the same way. Sympathetic in the abstract—I suppose I still am—but the values of the separatists are pretty repellant. When we were renting a condo here in town, one of our neighbours used to say that there'd be a civil war within Quebec following independence because they'd immediately start looking for new enemies to uproot and expel. I'm inclined to agree.

There's a certain irony that the French nationalists may have killed their own argument by their very success within the province. For the past forty years, all parties in Quebec have been committed to protecting and promoting French language and culture, and have been so good at it that to any born after 1980, it's hard to see what would be gained from becoming an independent nation. Separatism is mostly confined to the lust of Boomers. For Xers and Millennials, what's the upside?
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Re: Canadian politics gets innerestin'

Post by Rat Patrol » 26 Oct 2017, 11:21pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
19 Oct 2017, 9:17pm
Yeah, there's Montreal and there's the rest of Quebec. Super cosmopolitan versus … not. But even lefty Quebeckers have a hard time on issues of race and religion. I remember during the '95 sovereignty referendum, Quebec's First Nations had their own vote on whether they would want to remain in Canada or an independent Quebec. The French separatists quickly said that Indigenous people's wishes were irrelevant. Yeah, you're principled bastards, ain't ya?
Oof...the not-Montreal part is so true. My hometown has a huge population of Quebecer and Aroostook County, Maine emigrants who made lateral moves from the forestry industry to construction in Southern New England. Lots of "Theriault" and "Thibideaux" and "Ouellette" last names in my high school yearbook, kids whose parents spoke only French at home, and long holiday road trips to see the in-laws up in Fort Kent. They were both on the receiving ("You choppa da wood, eh?") and giving (did I mention Bristol had CT's last active KKK chapter before its leader got sent to prison for illegal gun-running?) end of a lot of knuckle-dragging racial, ethnic, and religious "discourse". Even more confusing was you'd literally have people with the same last names calling each other epithets, because one person picked up a francophone last name from a place of family origin and one picked up a francophone last name from a local marriage certificate where the "-eau" displaced the "-ski" in the maiden name.
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