So...what did Paul actually play on?

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Re: So...what did Paul actually play on?

Post by TeddyB Not Logged In » 05 Nov 2017, 10:28pm

Oh, and Straight to Hell faded in at the top of side one.

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Re: So...what did Paul actually play on?

Post by Marky Dread » 05 Nov 2017, 10:33pm

TeddyB Not Logged In wrote:
05 Nov 2017, 10:28pm
Oh, and Straight to Hell faded in at the top of side one.
Just to clarify Teddy are the SS box STH and the CoB box STH the same with just the SS version faded up at at the start.
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Re: So...what did Paul actually play on?

Post by Kory » 06 Nov 2017, 2:05pm

matedog wrote:
04 Nov 2017, 4:50pm
Does anyone have a nice summary of the differences between CR and Rat Patrol? I thought the most obvious differences were the two added tracks (Kill Time, Beautiful People (whatever their real titles were)), no OBF (except maybe?), longer STH, longer Sean Flynn, different vocal takes for SISOSIG and KYR, that little conga intro on RTC, and adding some of the b-sides?

I seem to be in the minority, but I think the CR changes were improvements. The new vocal takes were way better, particularly the non-double tracked Mick vocals. STH is an improvement too with excising that Alphabet City verse, specifically because of the dramatic break it creates after the "mama san says" part. I love Sean Flynn, but not enough to know what the hell the difference is between the regular and extended versions.
Ok, I'll relent and reply to this. I think everything you mentioned above, but in some cases the mixes themselves are also quite different, with different levels on the guitars, more obvious effects, or more prominent drums (from what I can hear on some of the later-gen tracks), that give a lot of the album a much more floating feeling to it. To me it has a lot more of a hazy, dimly-lit room sensation that goes with it.

I wouldn't mind putting together a list of differences, but I'll have to find time for it, as I'm currently doing some light remastering on the Smiths' Troy Tate tapes.
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Re: So...what did Paul actually play on?

Post by TeddyB Not Logged In » 06 Nov 2017, 3:53pm

Marky Dread wrote:
05 Nov 2017, 10:33pm
TeddyB Not Logged In wrote:
05 Nov 2017, 10:28pm
Oh, and Straight to Hell faded in at the top of side one.
Just to clarify Teddy are the SS box STH and the CoB box STH the same with just the SS version faded up at at the start.

Okay, yes. I think all versions of STH are the same mix. Glyn Johns just edited the song for Combat Rock. I was saying the 2 LP version of Rat Patrol, as of the end of the original sessions, was meant to open with a faded in version of the song.

Oh, and also the drum sound on the Rat Patrol mixes was generally more “real” sounding, surprisingly enough, “Know Your Rights” excepted as it had the added electronics. Glyn seemed to use all of Topper’s drums to trigger some additional sounds.

What do you think Marky?
Last edited by TeddyB Not Logged In on 07 Nov 2017, 4:26am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: So...what did Paul actually play on?

Post by Marky Dread » 06 Nov 2017, 4:19pm

TeddyB Not Logged In wrote:
06 Nov 2017, 3:53pm
Marky Dread wrote:
05 Nov 2017, 10:33pm
TeddyB Not Logged In wrote:
05 Nov 2017, 10:28pm
Oh, and Straight to Hell faded in at the top of side one.
Just to clarify Teddy are the SS box STH and the CoB box STH the same with just the SS version faded up at at the start.

Okay, yes. I think all versions of STH are the same mix. Glyn Johns just edited the song for Combat Rock. I was saying the 2 LP version of Rat Patrol, as of the end of the original sessions, was meant to open with a faded in version of the song.

Oh, and also the drum sound on the Rat Patrol mixes was generally more “real” sounding, surprisingly enough, “Know Your Rifhts” excepted as it had the added electronics. Glyn seemed to use all of Topper’s drums to trigger some additional sounds.

What do you think Marky?
I agree about the drum sounds on RP sounding more genuine. Sounds like some reverb used on Toppers drums drums to push up the feel on CR. When I first heard StH on the CoB box that really peaked my interest in the whole album CR Vs. RP debate. When I bought the vinyl CR album one of the first things I noticed was all those extra lyrics on the inner bag. Where did they disappear to and why were they not used? Then I picked up the CD "Another Combat Rock" and some more of the story started to evolve then that was followed by the double CD "RPfFB" and a little bit more is revealed. It just made me want to hear it all the more and to find out just how much Glyn Johns trimmed off the album to make it a single. It was The Clash playing it safe which in fairness paid off with them having a hit album. But the earlier mixes of Mick's are way more fascinating and I truly feel another double album would've sold equally as well and still been a hit. You could've trimmed whatever was necessary for single releases. I mean although StH was released as a double A-side with SISoSIG? it was still an edit of the actual CR album version so why could that not have happened the same with the RPfFB version. StH should've been a stand alone single also as it was such a strong track a double A-side with SISoSIG? in reality relegated it to a B-side.
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Re: So...what did Paul actually play on?

Post by topperville » 06 Nov 2017, 4:53pm

Marky Dread wrote:
06 Nov 2017, 4:19pm
TeddyB Not Logged In wrote:
06 Nov 2017, 3:53pm
Marky Dread wrote:
05 Nov 2017, 10:33pm
TeddyB Not Logged In wrote:
05 Nov 2017, 10:28pm
Oh, and Straight to Hell faded in at the top of side one.
Just to clarify Teddy are the SS box STH and the CoB box STH the same with just the SS version faded up at at the start.

Okay, yes. I think all versions of STH are the same mix. Glyn Johns just edited the song for Combat Rock. I was saying the 2 LP version of Rat Patrol, as of the end of the original sessions, was meant to open with a faded in version of the song.

Oh, and also the drum sound on the Rat Patrol mixes was generally more “real” sounding, surprisingly enough, “Know Your Rifhts” excepted as it had the added electronics. Glyn seemed to use all of Topper’s drums to trigger some additional sounds.

What do you think Marky?
I agree about the drum sounds on RP sounding more genuine. Sounds like some reverb used on Toppers drums drums to push up the feel on CR. When I first heard StH on the CoB box that really peaked my interest in the whole album CR Vs. RP debate. When I bought the vinyl CR album one of the first things I noticed was all those extra lyrics on the inner bag. Where did they disappear to and why were they not used? Then I picked up the CD "Another Combat Rock" and some more of the story started to evolve then that was followed by the double CD "RPfFB" and a little bit more is revealed. It just made me want to hear it all the more and to find out just how much Glyn Johns trimmed off the album to make it a single. It was The Clash playing it safe which in fairness paid off with them having a hit album. But the earlier mixes of Mick's are way more fascinating and I truly feel another double album would've sold equally as well and still been a hit. You could've trimmed whatever was necessary for single releases. I mean although StH was released as a double A-side with SISoSIG? it was still an edit of the actual CR album version so why could that not have happened the same with the RPfFB version. StH should've been a stand alone single also as it was such a strong track a double A-side with SISoSIG? in reality relegated it to a B-side.
I totally agree with Marky on this. I first heard the full version of StH way before the CoB release and thought - WTF! Yep it was on a shitty cassette of the alleged RPFFB - probably about 1985 - but I just thought - where has the rest of the song gone? And yep - the 7” (supposed double A side) cut it even more. StH should have been a stand alone single - I would even suggest the first from the album - before KYR.

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Re: So...what did Paul actually play on?

Post by Low Down Low » 06 Nov 2017, 5:02pm

I never got the concept of the double A-sided single. Is there some practical consideration to it I'm missing or is it merely the band saying, hey look we've got these really 2 great songs that we can't decide between so you really need to buy this single? It also meant 4 songs were released from the single album CR compared to 3 from the triple that preceded it and 1 from the previous double (talking about the UK only), didn't that stray from the official party line just a tad?

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Re: So...what did Paul actually play on?

Post by matedog » 06 Nov 2017, 5:14pm

COB has "edited" versions of RAD and Ghetto Defendant that are about 20 seconds shorter. Any idea what was edited out?
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

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Re: So...what did Paul actually play on?

Post by Heston » 06 Nov 2017, 5:58pm

Hang on, wasn't the long version of STH on the 12" version of the SISOSIG/STH single?
So what does Marconi playing the mamba mean? "Marconi" is referring to the radio itself. It plays a deadly snake. The snake - the mamba - is slithering from the speakers. Ready to kill greedy corporations. Ready to free the world of all that is evil, and to leave behind only the youthful idealism encompassed by the tenets of rock and roll.

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Re: So...what did Paul actually play on?

Post by Heston » 06 Nov 2017, 5:59pm

matedog wrote:
06 Nov 2017, 5:14pm
COB has "edited" versions of RAD and Ghetto Defendant that are about 20 seconds shorter. Any idea what was edited out?
Some Ginsberg on the latter, not sure why.
So what does Marconi playing the mamba mean? "Marconi" is referring to the radio itself. It plays a deadly snake. The snake - the mamba - is slithering from the speakers. Ready to kill greedy corporations. Ready to free the world of all that is evil, and to leave behind only the youthful idealism encompassed by the tenets of rock and roll.

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Re: So...what did Paul actually play on?

Post by topperville » 06 Nov 2017, 6:11pm

Heston wrote:
06 Nov 2017, 5:58pm
Hang on, wasn't the long version of STH on the 12" version of the SISOSIG/STH single?
It was the CR length version - but not the full CoB length one. Didn’t matter really as 12” singles were a bit of a novelty at the time.

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Re: So...what did Paul actually play on?

Post by Marky Dread » 06 Nov 2017, 6:25pm

Heston wrote:
06 Nov 2017, 5:58pm
Hang on, wasn't the long version of STH on the 12" version of the SISOSIG/STH single?
Yes but the 7" was an edit. When you say the long version it wasn't the version with the extra verse on CoB on the 12" just the CR album version.

Edit : sorry didn't see Toppervilles reply.
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Re: So...what did Paul actually play on?

Post by matedog » 06 Nov 2017, 9:17pm

Marky Dread wrote:
06 Nov 2017, 6:25pm
Heston wrote:
06 Nov 2017, 5:58pm
Hang on, wasn't the long version of STH on the 12" version of the SISOSIG/STH single?
Yes but the 7" was an edit. When you say the long version it wasn't the version with the extra verse on CoB on the 12" just the CR album version.

Edit : sorry didn't see Toppervilles reply.
So there is a shorter version than the CR version for the 7” single?
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

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Re: So...what did Paul actually play on?

Post by Heston » 06 Nov 2017, 9:55pm

Marky Dread wrote:
06 Nov 2017, 6:25pm
Heston wrote:
06 Nov 2017, 5:58pm
Hang on, wasn't the long version of STH on the 12" version of the SISOSIG/STH single?
Yes but the 7" was an edit. When you say the long version it wasn't the version with the extra verse on CoB on the 12" just the CR album version.

Edit : sorry didn't see Toppervilles reply.
Gotcha. I had it in my mind that the CoB version was on the original 12" but that's not the case. Is there anywhere we can hear the 7" edit that Discogs says is 3.51 in length? I used to have the single years ago but can't remember what was excised.
So what does Marconi playing the mamba mean? "Marconi" is referring to the radio itself. It plays a deadly snake. The snake - the mamba - is slithering from the speakers. Ready to kill greedy corporations. Ready to free the world of all that is evil, and to leave behind only the youthful idealism encompassed by the tenets of rock and roll.

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Re: So...what did Paul actually play on?

Post by Heston » 06 Nov 2017, 10:00pm

matedog wrote:
06 Nov 2017, 9:17pm
Marky Dread wrote:
06 Nov 2017, 6:25pm
Heston wrote:
06 Nov 2017, 5:58pm
Hang on, wasn't the long version of STH on the 12" version of the SISOSIG/STH single?
Yes but the 7" was an edit. When you say the long version it wasn't the version with the extra verse on CoB on the 12" just the CR album version.

Edit : sorry didn't see Toppervilles reply.
So there is a shorter version than the CR version for the 7” single?
I had the single and 12" about 30 years ago but can't remember the short edit, would be interesting to hear again. I've just checked Wiki and it's on the Singles Box.
So what does Marconi playing the mamba mean? "Marconi" is referring to the radio itself. It plays a deadly snake. The snake - the mamba - is slithering from the speakers. Ready to kill greedy corporations. Ready to free the world of all that is evil, and to leave behind only the youthful idealism encompassed by the tenets of rock and roll.

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