The Spirit Of St Louis

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matedog
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Re: The Spirit Of St Louis

Post by matedog »

eumaas wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:38pm
matedog wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:35pm
eumaas wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:28pm
matedog wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:26pm
eumaas wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:14pm
I think it's absolutely hilarious that they didn't know what a key is, yet were trying to encompass all genres of music.
I don't get how you can create musically "normal" chord progressions without understanding how key signature works. Granted, some of their more unorthodox progressions seem to suggest they were going with what sounds good vs. what are traditional progressions. Like I'm So Bored just incorporates I, IV, and V chords in Emaj but then throws in a C maj chord in the chorus.
I think they were just intuitively picking chords. I mean, the kinds of cadences you get with I, IV, and V are familiar to everyone. You don't need to know what a key is to just find the cadence you're looking for.
Makes sense. It just seems like it would save time writing progressions to know "C goes to F" instead of "I'll start here and then when I barre chord in this way, it sounds familiar."
My sister works like that. I couldn't believe it. She didn't know that a capo changes the chords too. I don't think she knew that a keyboard is just the same 12 notes repeating through the octaves either. I'm a highly analytical musician. I tend to build from the ground up, using theory the whole time. So that intuitive stuff is real foreign to me.
Likewise. I didn't pick up a tonal instrument until way too late, so I need a guide (aka theory) to tell me how things should go. I haven't delved super deep into theory to create a lot of quirky progressions that would resemble the more instinctual, trial and error approach of Mick and your sis.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

eumaas
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Re: The Spirit Of St Louis

Post by eumaas »

matedog wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:47pm
eumaas wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:38pm
matedog wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:35pm
eumaas wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:28pm
matedog wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:26pm


I don't get how you can create musically "normal" chord progressions without understanding how key signature works. Granted, some of their more unorthodox progressions seem to suggest they were going with what sounds good vs. what are traditional progressions. Like I'm So Bored just incorporates I, IV, and V chords in Emaj but then throws in a C maj chord in the chorus.
I think they were just intuitively picking chords. I mean, the kinds of cadences you get with I, IV, and V are familiar to everyone. You don't need to know what a key is to just find the cadence you're looking for.
Makes sense. It just seems like it would save time writing progressions to know "C goes to F" instead of "I'll start here and then when I barre chord in this way, it sounds familiar."
My sister works like that. I couldn't believe it. She didn't know that a capo changes the chords too. I don't think she knew that a keyboard is just the same 12 notes repeating through the octaves either. I'm a highly analytical musician. I tend to build from the ground up, using theory the whole time. So that intuitive stuff is real foreign to me.
Likewise. I didn't pick up a tonal instrument until way too late, so I need a guide (aka theory) to tell me how things should go. I haven't delved super deep into theory to create a lot of quirky progressions that would resemble the more instinctual, trial and error approach of Mick and your sis.
I do some quirky shit but it comes out of theory. I've got a tune that goes Fm / Fm / C# / A / B7 / B7 / E / E, and then cycles back. It only works because I emphasize the common tones, and the bass's voice leading does a lot of the lifting. I like spiky harmonies due to my post-bop/free jazz background so I like to incorporate weird progressions now and then.

I think Philip Glass does a similar progression somewhere but I am too lazy to find the tune.
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman

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matedog
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Re: The Spirit Of St Louis

Post by matedog »

eumaas wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:50pm
matedog wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:47pm
eumaas wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:38pm
matedog wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:35pm
eumaas wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:28pm

I think they were just intuitively picking chords. I mean, the kinds of cadences you get with I, IV, and V are familiar to everyone. You don't need to know what a key is to just find the cadence you're looking for.
Makes sense. It just seems like it would save time writing progressions to know "C goes to F" instead of "I'll start here and then when I barre chord in this way, it sounds familiar."
My sister works like that. I couldn't believe it. She didn't know that a capo changes the chords too. I don't think she knew that a keyboard is just the same 12 notes repeating through the octaves either. I'm a highly analytical musician. I tend to build from the ground up, using theory the whole time. So that intuitive stuff is real foreign to me.
Likewise. I didn't pick up a tonal instrument until way too late, so I need a guide (aka theory) to tell me how things should go. I haven't delved super deep into theory to create a lot of quirky progressions that would resemble the more instinctual, trial and error approach of Mick and your sis.
I do some quirky shit but it comes out of theory. I've got a tune that goes Fm / Fm / C# / A / B7 / B7 / E / E, and then cycles back. It only works because I emphasize the common tones, and the bass's voice leading does a lot of the lifting. I like spiky harmonies due to my post-bop/free jazz background so I like to incorporate weird progressions now and then.

I think Philip Glass does a similar progression somewhere but I am too lazy to find the tune.
Yeah, that's a bit beyond my knowledge base. I remember when I was taking accordion lessons a few years back I learned this nifty one from a Tom Waits song - C-Emaj-Amin-G-C. The Emaj is a bit jarring, but it basically resolves to the Amin and the G transitions it back to Cmaj. Basically just going between relative major and minor.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

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Re: The Spirit Of St Louis

Post by 101Walterton »

eumaas wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:38pm
matedog wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:35pm
eumaas wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:28pm
matedog wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:26pm
eumaas wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:14pm
I think it's absolutely hilarious that they didn't know what a key is, yet were trying to encompass all genres of music.
I don't get how you can create musically "normal" chord progressions without understanding how key signature works. Granted, some of their more unorthodox progressions seem to suggest they were going with what sounds good vs. what are traditional progressions. Like I'm So Bored just incorporates I, IV, and V chords in Emaj but then throws in a C maj chord in the chorus.
I think they were just intuitively picking chords. I mean, the kinds of cadences you get with I, IV, and V are familiar to everyone. You don't need to know what a key is to just find the cadence you're looking for.
Makes sense. It just seems like it would save time writing progressions to know "C goes to F" instead of "I'll start here and then when I barre chord in this way, it sounds familiar."
My sister works like that. I couldn't believe it. She didn't know that a capo changes the chords too. I don't think she knew that a keyboard is just the same 12 notes repeating through the octaves either. I'm a highly analytical musician. I tend to build from the ground up, using theory the whole time. So that intuitive stuff is real foreign to me.
Same reason I really struggle to learn as my OCD wants me to do everything properly by the book whereas someone who plays by ear isn’t restricted.
Similar to why I hate cooking because I need an exact recipe to follow whereas good cooks just throw in what they think will taste good and wing it.

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Re: The Spirit Of St Louis

Post by 101Walterton »

matedog wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 12:57pm
Every few years I enthusiastically revisit this album thinking, "a lost Clash album! Torchlight is great! There must be more hidden gems!" and then I relisten and am always let down.
Is it EET week already?

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Re: The Spirit Of St Louis

Post by Heston »

matedog wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 3:23pm
eumaas wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:50pm
matedog wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:47pm
eumaas wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:38pm
matedog wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:35pm

Makes sense. It just seems like it would save time writing progressions to know "C goes to F" instead of "I'll start here and then when I barre chord in this way, it sounds familiar."
My sister works like that. I couldn't believe it. She didn't know that a capo changes the chords too. I don't think she knew that a keyboard is just the same 12 notes repeating through the octaves either. I'm a highly analytical musician. I tend to build from the ground up, using theory the whole time. So that intuitive stuff is real foreign to me.
Likewise. I didn't pick up a tonal instrument until way too late, so I need a guide (aka theory) to tell me how things should go. I haven't delved super deep into theory to create a lot of quirky progressions that would resemble the more instinctual, trial and error approach of Mick and your sis.
I do some quirky shit but it comes out of theory. I've got a tune that goes Fm / Fm / C# / A / B7 / B7 / E / E, and then cycles back. It only works because I emphasize the common tones, and the bass's voice leading does a lot of the lifting. I like spiky harmonies due to my post-bop/free jazz background so I like to incorporate weird progressions now and then.

I think Philip Glass does a similar progression somewhere but I am too lazy to find the tune.
Yeah, that's a bit beyond my knowledge base. I remember when I was taking accordion lessons a few years back I learned this nifty one from a Tom Waits song - C-Emaj-Amin-G-C. The Emaj is a bit jarring, but it basically resolves to the Amin and the G transitions it back to Cmaj. Basically just going between relative major and minor.
I love chords, they are what piqued my interest in making music.

My latest chord sequence is...

B...G...B...G...B...G...B...G...
Eb...E...B...B...Eb...E...E...B...B...
Em...Bm7...A...A...Em7...Bm7...A...A...then a quick Bb that sends it back to the start.

I like modulating into different keys but try to avoid it feeling jarring or unnatural by making sure the melody sounds seamless.
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

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Re: The Spirit Of St Louis

Post by Chairman Ralph »

My latest chord sequence is...

B...G...B...G...B...G...B...G...
Eb...E...B...B...Eb...E...E...B...B...
Em...Bm7...A...A...Em7...Bm7...A...A...then a quick Bb that sends it back to the start.
It's fun to do stuff like that -- throw an unlikely chord into the mix, but that one gets you back home. One Of The Boys does that, too -- a Bb in the chorus to send you back into the song.
I like modulating into different keys but try to avoid it feeling jarring or unnatural by making sure the melody sounds seamless.
That's one reason I hated a lot of mainstream '80s stuff -- everybody and their brother made that mistake, from the hair farmer bands on down. A lot of country music is like that, too, but those guys seem to do it more skillfully.
Interesting. Foley comes away sounding like she has really good perspective on that small slice of her life. Some stuff was good, some stuff didn't work out, clear eyed but not bitter about some of the things that may have been a mistake or that she felt forced into. Her comments about the band are actually mostly warm, which is nice.

It's not exactly surprising that, at the end of the day, the Clash just didn't really know how to make this kind of record, much as they might have wanted to.
What's interesting to me is that Foley wasn't totally satisfied with the results, either. Collaborations are a fine balance, though. I remember reading an Otis Rush interview, where he waxed dismissively about Mourning In The Morning, on which Mike Bloomfield and Nick Gravenites played a major role. Asked why he disliked it, he said, "it was too much of their ideas, and not enough of mine," or something along those lines...I thought, "Okay, I guess you don't want to be this guy." At any rate...

Foley sounds a lot mellower about the subject than, say, when I approached her back in '97, as I was trying to get my (then) own (Great Lost) Clash Project up and running. She said it was all a long time ago, couldn't remember much, so he couldn't help me, blah-blah-blah. It smacked of carrying the whole bloody-mindedness bit a little too far (like Joe Jackson ending his book right before he's recording his first album. Joe, not to be mean -- I'm not going to feel terribly interested in your Arms & Legs days, so forgive me if I don't hit "Add To Cart"... :mrgreen:)

I've always enjoyed Spirit Of St. Louis, myself, so the whole is-it-or-isn't-it a Clash record disguise angle was never a big deal to me. But that's probably because I bought it, long after the fact, for a buck, at Flat, Black & Circular's famed blue dot bin. So I had no expectations, one way or the other, going in. To my recollection, Side 1 struck me as stronger than Side 2.

But I can see how the public got confused by that angle, on which Foley does comment quite perceptively -- what seems cute and fun and quirky at the time ("Produced: By My Boyfriend") gets lost on people when you don't let them in on the gag. Playing up the connection would have more sense than burying it, as they chose to do. Then again, given the stuff that was getting on the radio back then, it's not surprising that there wasn't a lot of demand for an Anglo-American Edith Piaf.

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Re: The Spirit Of St Louis

Post by Red Angel »

The Lost Clash Record? I see it as a B side of Sandinista! More than anything else a distraction.... :scared:
Music is the only thing that matters

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Re: The Spirit Of St Louis

Post by Marky Dread »

matedog wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:26pm
eumaas wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:14pm
I think it's absolutely hilarious that they didn't know what a key is, yet were trying to encompass all genres of music.
I don't get how you can create musically "normal" chord progressions without understanding how key signature works. Granted, some of their more unorthodox progressions seem to suggest they were going with what sounds good vs. what are traditional progressions. Like I'm So Bored just incorporates I, IV, and V chords in Emaj but then throws in a C maj chord in the chorus.
Punk Rock. If it sounds good fuck the theory.
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matedog
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Re: The Spirit Of St Louis

Post by matedog »

Heston wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 4:03pm
matedog wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 3:23pm
eumaas wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:50pm
matedog wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:47pm
eumaas wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:38pm

My sister works like that. I couldn't believe it. She didn't know that a capo changes the chords too. I don't think she knew that a keyboard is just the same 12 notes repeating through the octaves either. I'm a highly analytical musician. I tend to build from the ground up, using theory the whole time. So that intuitive stuff is real foreign to me.
Likewise. I didn't pick up a tonal instrument until way too late, so I need a guide (aka theory) to tell me how things should go. I haven't delved super deep into theory to create a lot of quirky progressions that would resemble the more instinctual, trial and error approach of Mick and your sis.
I do some quirky shit but it comes out of theory. I've got a tune that goes Fm / Fm / C# / A / B7 / B7 / E / E, and then cycles back. It only works because I emphasize the common tones, and the bass's voice leading does a lot of the lifting. I like spiky harmonies due to my post-bop/free jazz background so I like to incorporate weird progressions now and then.

I think Philip Glass does a similar progression somewhere but I am too lazy to find the tune.
Yeah, that's a bit beyond my knowledge base. I remember when I was taking accordion lessons a few years back I learned this nifty one from a Tom Waits song - C-Emaj-Amin-G-C. The Emaj is a bit jarring, but it basically resolves to the Amin and the G transitions it back to Cmaj. Basically just going between relative major and minor.
I love chords, they are what piqued my interest in making music.

My latest chord sequence is...

B...G...B...G...B...G...B...G...
Eb...E...B...B...Eb...E...E...B...B...
Em...Bm7...A...A...Em7...Bm7...A...A...then a quick Bb that sends it back to the start.

I like modulating into different keys but try to avoid it feeling jarring or unnatural by making sure the melody sounds seamless.
An interesting thing, I downloaded the sheet music for Good Vibrations and the chord changes blew my mind. I developed a much deeper appreciation for the song because it is so nuts, key/chord-wise. It's fascinating, because the changes, though occasionally a bit jarring, are still natural enough that the song was a certified pop hit. And it wasn't a pop hit because the key changes go up in the early choruses and go down in the last chorus. It was a hit because it was catchy. That's something special.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

eumaas
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Re: The Spirit Of St Louis

Post by eumaas »

matedog wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 10:01am
Heston wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 4:03pm
matedog wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 3:23pm
eumaas wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:50pm
matedog wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:47pm

Likewise. I didn't pick up a tonal instrument until way too late, so I need a guide (aka theory) to tell me how things should go. I haven't delved super deep into theory to create a lot of quirky progressions that would resemble the more instinctual, trial and error approach of Mick and your sis.
I do some quirky shit but it comes out of theory. I've got a tune that goes Fm / Fm / C# / A / B7 / B7 / E / E, and then cycles back. It only works because I emphasize the common tones, and the bass's voice leading does a lot of the lifting. I like spiky harmonies due to my post-bop/free jazz background so I like to incorporate weird progressions now and then.

I think Philip Glass does a similar progression somewhere but I am too lazy to find the tune.
Yeah, that's a bit beyond my knowledge base. I remember when I was taking accordion lessons a few years back I learned this nifty one from a Tom Waits song - C-Emaj-Amin-G-C. The Emaj is a bit jarring, but it basically resolves to the Amin and the G transitions it back to Cmaj. Basically just going between relative major and minor.
I love chords, they are what piqued my interest in making music.

My latest chord sequence is...

B...G...B...G...B...G...B...G...
Eb...E...B...B...Eb...E...E...B...B...
Em...Bm7...A...A...Em7...Bm7...A...A...then a quick Bb that sends it back to the start.

I like modulating into different keys but try to avoid it feeling jarring or unnatural by making sure the melody sounds seamless.
An interesting thing, I downloaded the sheet music for Good Vibrations and the chord changes blew my mind. I developed a much deeper appreciation for the song because it is so nuts, key/chord-wise. It's fascinating, because the changes, though occasionally a bit jarring, are still natural enough that the song was a certified pop hit. And it wasn't a pop hit because the key changes go up in the early choruses and go down in the last chorus. It was a hit because it was catchy. That's something special.
God Only Knows has an odd progression too.
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman

I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy

matedog
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Re: The Spirit Of St Louis

Post by matedog »

eumaas wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 10:06am
matedog wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 10:01am
Heston wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 4:03pm
matedog wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 3:23pm
eumaas wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 1:50pm

I do some quirky shit but it comes out of theory. I've got a tune that goes Fm / Fm / C# / A / B7 / B7 / E / E, and then cycles back. It only works because I emphasize the common tones, and the bass's voice leading does a lot of the lifting. I like spiky harmonies due to my post-bop/free jazz background so I like to incorporate weird progressions now and then.

I think Philip Glass does a similar progression somewhere but I am too lazy to find the tune.
Yeah, that's a bit beyond my knowledge base. I remember when I was taking accordion lessons a few years back I learned this nifty one from a Tom Waits song - C-Emaj-Amin-G-C. The Emaj is a bit jarring, but it basically resolves to the Amin and the G transitions it back to Cmaj. Basically just going between relative major and minor.
I love chords, they are what piqued my interest in making music.

My latest chord sequence is...

B...G...B...G...B...G...B...G...
Eb...E...B...B...Eb...E...E...B...B...
Em...Bm7...A...A...Em7...Bm7...A...A...then a quick Bb that sends it back to the start.

I like modulating into different keys but try to avoid it feeling jarring or unnatural by making sure the melody sounds seamless.
An interesting thing, I downloaded the sheet music for Good Vibrations and the chord changes blew my mind. I developed a much deeper appreciation for the song because it is so nuts, key/chord-wise. It's fascinating, because the changes, though occasionally a bit jarring, are still natural enough that the song was a certified pop hit. And it wasn't a pop hit because the key changes go up in the early choruses and go down in the last chorus. It was a hit because it was catchy. That's something special.
God Only Knows has an odd progression too.
Jesus, now I have to spend some time with that. On first glance, it seems even more unorthodox than GV.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

eumaas
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Re: The Spirit Of St Louis

Post by eumaas »

matedog wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 10:12am
eumaas wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 10:06am
matedog wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 10:01am
Heston wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 4:03pm
matedog wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 3:23pm

Yeah, that's a bit beyond my knowledge base. I remember when I was taking accordion lessons a few years back I learned this nifty one from a Tom Waits song - C-Emaj-Amin-G-C. The Emaj is a bit jarring, but it basically resolves to the Amin and the G transitions it back to Cmaj. Basically just going between relative major and minor.
I love chords, they are what piqued my interest in making music.

My latest chord sequence is...

B...G...B...G...B...G...B...G...
Eb...E...B...B...Eb...E...E...B...B...
Em...Bm7...A...A...Em7...Bm7...A...A...then a quick Bb that sends it back to the start.

I like modulating into different keys but try to avoid it feeling jarring or unnatural by making sure the melody sounds seamless.
An interesting thing, I downloaded the sheet music for Good Vibrations and the chord changes blew my mind. I developed a much deeper appreciation for the song because it is so nuts, key/chord-wise. It's fascinating, because the changes, though occasionally a bit jarring, are still natural enough that the song was a certified pop hit. And it wasn't a pop hit because the key changes go up in the early choruses and go down in the last chorus. It was a hit because it was catchy. That's something special.
God Only Knows has an odd progression too.
Jesus, now I have to spend some time with that. On first glance, it seems even more unorthodox than GV.
That stuff works because Brian Wilson is exceptionally good at voice leading.
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman

I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy

Kory
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Re: The Spirit Of St Louis

Post by Kory »

I gotta get back into theory a bit more. I've been writing more intuitively lately and I don't know why.
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Re: The Spirit Of St Louis

Post by muppet hi fi »

Always loved 'Spirit of St. Louis' since it was released and appreciate even more now. It really is the "lost Clash album" and a great companion to 'Sandinista!'. Not sure why it's so disliked/disregarded - is it Ellen's voice? The songwriting, both Mick/Joe and Tymon, is uniformly strong and enchanting IMO, and "Torchlight", "MPH" and "In the Killing Hour" are all classics, says me.
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