Rude Boy

Clash clash clash. ¡VIVAN LOS NORTEAMERICANOS DEL IMCT Y LAS BRIGADAS DEL CADILLAC NUEVO!
Marky Dread
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Re: Rude Boy

Post by Marky Dread » 03 Nov 2017, 11:29am

WestwayKid wrote:
03 Nov 2017, 11:21am
Low Down Low wrote:
02 Nov 2017, 8:22pm
Marky Dread wrote:
02 Nov 2017, 3:35pm
Low Down Low wrote:
02 Nov 2017, 3:26pm
From all i've read it came across as a totally dysfunctional relationship, probably well before the end, and was all but beyond rescue. I see the Joe/Mick partnership as something akin to a marriage, even the tightest marriages sometimes break down though deep down, the two people know they still love each other dearly. Then comes the break up and the remembrance of what it was that drew you to your partner in the first place, there's no going back at that point though.
Not all marriages that drift apart end in separation though. Lot's of bands have continued where various members have a dislike of one another. Given time these things can mend and Joe and Mick became friends again fairly soon afterwards. The pressure of being The Clash and different members musical ambitions and idealogy may have weighed heavily. And an old mother hen (hello Bernie) sticking it's beak in where it wasn't needed.
I'd go along with all that. I think Joe being the romantic dreamer naturally assumed they'd just go and pick up the pieces while pragmatic Mick realised that things can never be the same second time around and so it was time to move on. I dont know enough about other bands to avoid speaking in generalities but I agree about the pressure and ideology. If there is a contemporary rock band that carries as much baggage (in a metaphorical sense) as the Clash did, then I havent heard of them. Dramatic I know, but i'm inclined to think there was a sense of destiny about it from the very beginning, only a surprise in that they managed to survive as long as they did.
I just can’t believe Joe, Paul, Bernie, Kosmo, whoever could have ever been deluded enough to think getting rid of Mick would not kill the band. I wasn’t there. I don’t know what the relationship was like, but Mick Jones was/is a huge talent and if they couldn’t see/understand his place in the machine then they deserved to end up with Vince White in the band.

Speaking of Vince, I recall an interview where he talks about Joe’s relationship with Bernie and about how Joe was essentially willing to go along with anything Bernie said because John Mellor truly believed that Bernie had created Joe Strummer. In Vince’s opinion (and it makes sense), Joe was deeply insecure at heart and never accepted that he became who he became on his own. It was Bernie who took him from a pub rock band and a squat to being a spokesman for a generation.

I’ve always felt that the sacking of Mick had more to do with Bernie than Joe. Bernie wanted control. He wanted more creative input or whatever and he knew he would never get that with Mick in the band. Mick was the musician of the group. He was the creative vision.

I think Bernie definitely helped create a situation where Mick became more and more of an outsider. I think a lot of Joe’s self-flagellation after the fact was based on the fact that he realized he’d been used by Bernie to oust Mick (and in the process destroy the band). I think it really hurt him to realize he had a part in what happened and that he could have done something, but didn’t.

Again, I wasn’t there. I didn’t know Joe. I don’t know Mick or Paul or Bernie or anyone else who was associated with the band. This is just my opinion based upon what I’ve read and seen and heard.
Bernie was just copying McLaren's Machiavellian exploits when he got rid of Matlock in the Pistols by turning John further and further away from glen by backstabbing lies. It gives them the feeling of controling the situations the bands found themselves in. Complete control indeed, they have no real input to the music etc so they gain control by playing mind games and eventually end up running the show and the band down.
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WestwayKid
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Re: Rude Boy

Post by WestwayKid » 03 Nov 2017, 11:38am

Marky Dread wrote:
03 Nov 2017, 11:29am
WestwayKid wrote:
03 Nov 2017, 11:21am
Low Down Low wrote:
02 Nov 2017, 8:22pm
Marky Dread wrote:
02 Nov 2017, 3:35pm
Low Down Low wrote:
02 Nov 2017, 3:26pm
From all i've read it came across as a totally dysfunctional relationship, probably well before the end, and was all but beyond rescue. I see the Joe/Mick partnership as something akin to a marriage, even the tightest marriages sometimes break down though deep down, the two people know they still love each other dearly. Then comes the break up and the remembrance of what it was that drew you to your partner in the first place, there's no going back at that point though.
Not all marriages that drift apart end in separation though. Lot's of bands have continued where various members have a dislike of one another. Given time these things can mend and Joe and Mick became friends again fairly soon afterwards. The pressure of being The Clash and different members musical ambitions and idealogy may have weighed heavily. And an old mother hen (hello Bernie) sticking it's beak in where it wasn't needed.
I'd go along with all that. I think Joe being the romantic dreamer naturally assumed they'd just go and pick up the pieces while pragmatic Mick realised that things can never be the same second time around and so it was time to move on. I dont know enough about other bands to avoid speaking in generalities but I agree about the pressure and ideology. If there is a contemporary rock band that carries as much baggage (in a metaphorical sense) as the Clash did, then I havent heard of them. Dramatic I know, but i'm inclined to think there was a sense of destiny about it from the very beginning, only a surprise in that they managed to survive as long as they did.
I just can’t believe Joe, Paul, Bernie, Kosmo, whoever could have ever been deluded enough to think getting rid of Mick would not kill the band. I wasn’t there. I don’t know what the relationship was like, but Mick Jones was/is a huge talent and if they couldn’t see/understand his place in the machine then they deserved to end up with Vince White in the band.

Speaking of Vince, I recall an interview where he talks about Joe’s relationship with Bernie and about how Joe was essentially willing to go along with anything Bernie said because John Mellor truly believed that Bernie had created Joe Strummer. In Vince’s opinion (and it makes sense), Joe was deeply insecure at heart and never accepted that he became who he became on his own. It was Bernie who took him from a pub rock band and a squat to being a spokesman for a generation.

I’ve always felt that the sacking of Mick had more to do with Bernie than Joe. Bernie wanted control. He wanted more creative input or whatever and he knew he would never get that with Mick in the band. Mick was the musician of the group. He was the creative vision.

I think Bernie definitely helped create a situation where Mick became more and more of an outsider. I think a lot of Joe’s self-flagellation after the fact was based on the fact that he realized he’d been used by Bernie to oust Mick (and in the process destroy the band). I think it really hurt him to realize he had a part in what happened and that he could have done something, but didn’t.

Again, I wasn’t there. I didn’t know Joe. I don’t know Mick or Paul or Bernie or anyone else who was associated with the band. This is just my opinion based upon what I’ve read and seen and heard.
Bernie was just copying McLaren's Machiavellian exploits when he got rid of Matlock in the Pistols by turning John further and further away from glen by backstabbing lies. It gives them the feeling of controling the situations the bands found themselves in. Complete control indeed, they have no real input to the music etc so they gain control by playing mind games and eventually end up running the show and the band down.
Sadly in the case of the Clash - Bernie eventually did get some real input into the music...

Marky Dread
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Re: Rude Boy

Post by Marky Dread » 03 Nov 2017, 12:08pm

WestwayKid wrote:
03 Nov 2017, 11:38am
Marky Dread wrote:
03 Nov 2017, 11:29am
WestwayKid wrote:
03 Nov 2017, 11:21am
Low Down Low wrote:
02 Nov 2017, 8:22pm
Marky Dread wrote:
02 Nov 2017, 3:35pm


Not all marriages that drift apart end in separation though. Lot's of bands have continued where various members have a dislike of one another. Given time these things can mend and Joe and Mick became friends again fairly soon afterwards. The pressure of being The Clash and different members musical ambitions and idealogy may have weighed heavily. And an old mother hen (hello Bernie) sticking it's beak in where it wasn't needed.
I'd go along with all that. I think Joe being the romantic dreamer naturally assumed they'd just go and pick up the pieces while pragmatic Mick realised that things can never be the same second time around and so it was time to move on. I dont know enough about other bands to avoid speaking in generalities but I agree about the pressure and ideology. If there is a contemporary rock band that carries as much baggage (in a metaphorical sense) as the Clash did, then I havent heard of them. Dramatic I know, but i'm inclined to think there was a sense of destiny about it from the very beginning, only a surprise in that they managed to survive as long as they did.
I just can’t believe Joe, Paul, Bernie, Kosmo, whoever could have ever been deluded enough to think getting rid of Mick would not kill the band. I wasn’t there. I don’t know what the relationship was like, but Mick Jones was/is a huge talent and if they couldn’t see/understand his place in the machine then they deserved to end up with Vince White in the band.

Speaking of Vince, I recall an interview where he talks about Joe’s relationship with Bernie and about how Joe was essentially willing to go along with anything Bernie said because John Mellor truly believed that Bernie had created Joe Strummer. In Vince’s opinion (and it makes sense), Joe was deeply insecure at heart and never accepted that he became who he became on his own. It was Bernie who took him from a pub rock band and a squat to being a spokesman for a generation.

I’ve always felt that the sacking of Mick had more to do with Bernie than Joe. Bernie wanted control. He wanted more creative input or whatever and he knew he would never get that with Mick in the band. Mick was the musician of the group. He was the creative vision.

I think Bernie definitely helped create a situation where Mick became more and more of an outsider. I think a lot of Joe’s self-flagellation after the fact was based on the fact that he realized he’d been used by Bernie to oust Mick (and in the process destroy the band). I think it really hurt him to realize he had a part in what happened and that he could have done something, but didn’t.

Again, I wasn’t there. I didn’t know Joe. I don’t know Mick or Paul or Bernie or anyone else who was associated with the band. This is just my opinion based upon what I’ve read and seen and heard.
Bernie was just copying McLaren's Machiavellian exploits when he got rid of Matlock in the Pistols by turning John further and further away from glen by backstabbing lies. It gives them the feeling of controling the situations the bands found themselves in. Complete control indeed, they have no real input to the music etc so they gain control by playing mind games and eventually end up running the show and the band down.
Sadly in the case of the Clash - Bernie eventually did get some real input into the music...
Yep so did McLaren ...You Need Hands. So terrible it worked because the band were not operating as such anymore and for the fact it was a pisstake for the Swindle movie. But when you consider The Clash were a fully functioning unit at this point it simply beggars belief that Joe handed over the reins to Bernie so easily. It has the feel of a beaten man who no longer wnted to be in charge. And it pains me to say this stuff because of my admiration for Joe but seriously what a cop out for such a great band. Maybe Joe felt the songs really were not up to past glories and felt it easier to let Bernie take all the blame for fucking things up. I remember reading about the conversation between Johhny Green and Joe where Johnny had just watched the band and Joe admitting to Johnny they were shit.
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WestwayKid
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Re: Rude Boy

Post by WestwayKid » 03 Nov 2017, 1:44pm

I think John Mellor struggled with being Joe Strummer. I think he never felt he deserved to be elevated in the way he was. It is like he finally just collapsed in on himself. I've read that after Bernie came back - Joe became more assertive as the "leader" of the band - but that obviously didn't last. He's definitely one of rock's more compelling - and human - characters.

Marky Dread
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Re: Rude Boy

Post by Marky Dread » 03 Nov 2017, 2:10pm

WestwayKid wrote:
03 Nov 2017, 1:44pm
I think John Mellor struggled with being Joe Strummer. I think he never felt he deserved to be elevated in the way he was. It is like he finally just collapsed in on himself. I've read that after Bernie came back - Joe became more assertive as the "leader" of the band - but that obviously didn't last. He's definitely one of rock's more compelling - and human - characters.
Joe was the most human of people. All those silly "The voice of a generation" tags wore him down. Who would really want to live up to that.
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Re: Rude Boy

Post by WestwayKid » 03 Nov 2017, 3:31pm

Marky Dread wrote:
03 Nov 2017, 2:10pm
WestwayKid wrote:
03 Nov 2017, 1:44pm
I think John Mellor struggled with being Joe Strummer. I think he never felt he deserved to be elevated in the way he was. It is like he finally just collapsed in on himself. I've read that after Bernie came back - Joe became more assertive as the "leader" of the band - but that obviously didn't last. He's definitely one of rock's more compelling - and human - characters.
Joe was the most human of people. All those silly "The voice of a generation" tags wore him down. Who would really want to live up to that.
Great story from Redemption Song was when Joe met INXS and found himself in the company of Michael Hutchence. Hutchence was in full rock star mode and Joe observed that it must be really strange to be a sex symbol and Hutchence replied, "Well, you're Joe Strummer. You should know." ...and Joe replies, "No, I was never a sex symbol. I was just a spokesman for a generation."

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