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Re: Rude Boy
Posted: 02 Nov 2017, 3:09pm
by 101Walterton
Marky Dread wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 3:05pm
Inder wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 2:59pm
Marky Dread wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 2:49pm
...of course Joe and Paul wanting to sack Mick didn't make them big headed rock stars. Joe long since acknowledged he was simply wrong and that Mick was well worth waiting for prima donna or not.
I'm not sure what you mean here...? My point is that they didn't like each other very much by the end.
Joe's self-flagellating interviews on the subject later on are pretty embarrassing tbh — as if he was doing penance. Paul, who also participated in the decision to get rid of Mick, has never apologized/"acknowledged he was simply wrong," at least publicly.
They may well not have liked each other that much by the end. But that never stopped Joe travelling to wherever to get Mick back in the group at one point. I'm saying Mick being a prima donna is a crap reason to sack him from his own band. Joe and Paul must've felt they were good enough without him. Paul who was taught to play bass by Mick and Joe who being an awesome frontman needing Mick to bounce ideas off and be the creative one. That's pretty big headed of both of them when you consider Mick's input/output for the band.
I don’t think they thought that far ahead. When someone is really pissing you off you don’t see past that.
Cut your nose off to spite your face?
Re: Rude Boy
Posted: 02 Nov 2017, 3:12pm
by Inder
Marky Dread wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 3:05pm
Joe and Paul must've felt they were good enough without him ... That's pretty big headed of both of them when you consider Mick's output for the band.
Interesting — I'd suggest the sort-of opposite: that they decided to take their chances without their co-founder/co-frontman/main musician than drag out a deteriorating, shitty, situation. Obviously ego has a lot to do with it as well.
Paul's line in Westway (which I think I mentioned in a different thread recently) about the break-up alludes to that — something like "we decided 'we're grown men, we can't put up with this anymore.'"
Re: Rude Boy
Posted: 02 Nov 2017, 3:17pm
by Marky Dread
101Walterton wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 3:09pm
Marky Dread wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 3:05pm
Inder wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 2:59pm
Marky Dread wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 2:49pm
...of course Joe and Paul wanting to sack Mick didn't make them big headed rock stars. Joe long since acknowledged he was simply wrong and that Mick was well worth waiting for prima donna or not.
I'm not sure what you mean here...? My point is that they didn't like each other very much by the end.
Joe's self-flagellating interviews on the subject later on are pretty embarrassing tbh — as if he was doing penance. Paul, who also participated in the decision to get rid of Mick, has never apologized/"acknowledged he was simply wrong," at least publicly.
They may well not have liked each other that much by the end. But that never stopped Joe travelling to wherever to get Mick back in the group at one point. I'm saying Mick being a prima donna is a crap reason to sack him from his own band. Joe and Paul must've felt they were good enough without him. Paul who was taught to play bass by Mick and Joe who being an awesome frontman needing Mick to bounce ideas off and be the creative one. That's pretty big headed of both of them when you consider Mick's input/output for the band.
I don’t think they thought that far ahead. When someone is really pissing you off you don’t see past that.
Cut your nose off to spite your face?
Maybe but they were not getting along for a while and they tend to blame the sacking of Topper as the start of the decline. Topper was an amazing drummer and difficult to relace but Mick was the real creative force in that band and getting rid of him tore the spine out. Terry Chimes/Pete Howard were good enough drummers for the band to continue with. Toppers musical input as good as RtC is was not that of Mick. They must've realised how important Mick was to the band.
Re: Rude Boy
Posted: 02 Nov 2017, 3:24pm
by Marky Dread
Inder wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 3:12pm
Marky Dread wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 3:05pm
Joe and Paul must've felt they were good enough without him ... That's pretty big headed of both of them when you consider Mick's output for the band.
Interesting — I'd suggest the sort-of opposite: that they decided to take their chances without their co-founder/co-frontman/main musician than drag out a deteriorating, shitty, situation. Obviously ego has a lot to do with it as well.
Paul's line in Westway (which I think I mentioned in a different thread recently) about the break-up alludes to that — something like "we decided 'we're grown men, we can't put up with this anymore.'"
I think ego has everything to do with it. '"we decided 'we're grown men, we can't put up with this anymore.'" what a complete load of bollocks, so that's how grown men act is it? Dump your friend who basically put you where you are. No grown men would not have turned there back's on a friend like that. No they would've tried other means of reconcilliation but their big heads and ego's got in the way. Grown men? more like kids in a playground.
Re: Rude Boy
Posted: 02 Nov 2017, 3:26pm
by Low Down Low
From all i've read it came across as a totally dysfunctional relationship, probably well before the end, and was all but beyond rescue. I see the Joe/Mick partnership as something akin to a marriage, even the tightest marriages sometimes break down though deep down, the two people know they still love each other dearly. Then comes the break up and the remembrance of what it was that drew you to your partner in the first place, there's no going back at that point though.
Re: Rude Boy
Posted: 02 Nov 2017, 3:33pm
by Inder
Marky Dread wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 3:24pm
Inder wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 3:12pm
Marky Dread wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 3:05pm
Joe and Paul must've felt they were good enough without him ... That's pretty big headed of both of them when you consider Mick's output for the band.
Interesting — I'd suggest the sort-of opposite: that they decided to take their chances without their co-founder/co-frontman/main musician than drag out a deteriorating, shitty, situation. Obviously ego has a lot to do with it as well.
Paul's line in Westway (which I think I mentioned in a different thread recently) about the break-up alludes to that — something like "we decided 'we're grown men, we can't put up with this anymore.'"
I think ego has everything to do with it. '"we decided 'we're grown men, we can't put up with this anymore.'" what a complete load of bollocks, so that's how grown men act is it? Dump your friend who basically put you where you are. No grown men would not have turned there back's on a friend like that. No they would've tried other means of reconcilliation but their big heads and ego's got in the way. Grown men? more like kids in a playground.
That's a pretty uncharitable reading of the situation, I think.
Like, Mick's sacking was the culmination of a long period of unhappiness/discontent/whatever. Bernie didn't help with all the manipulative "oh, he says he'll only talk to you through his lawyer" (or whatever) schtick.
Anyways, MJ had the opportunity to get the band back together when Joe went grovelling to him in 1985. Guess he saw more of a future with BAD.
Low Down Low wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 3:26pm
From all i've read it came across as a totally dysfunctional relationship, probably well before the end, and was all but beyond rescue. I see the Joe/Mick partnership as something akin to a marriage, even the tightest marriages sometimes break down though deep down, the two people know they still love each other dearly. Then comes the break up and the remembrance of what it was that drew you to your partner in the first place, there's no going back at that point though.
Definitely.
Re: Rude Boy
Posted: 02 Nov 2017, 3:35pm
by Marky Dread
Low Down Low wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 3:26pm
From all i've read it came across as a totally dysfunctional relationship, probably well before the end, and was all but beyond rescue. I see the Joe/Mick partnership as something akin to a marriage, even the tightest marriages sometimes break down though deep down, the two people know they still love each other dearly. Then comes the break up and the remembrance of what it was that drew you to your partner in the first place, there's no going back at that point though.
Not all marriages that drift apart end in separation though. Lot's of bands have continued where various members have a dislike of one another. Given time these things can mend and Joe and Mick became friends again fairly soon afterwards. The pressure of being The Clash and different members musical ambitions and idealogy may have weighed heavily. And an old mother hen (hello Bernie) sticking it's beak in where it wasn't needed.
Re: Rude Boy
Posted: 02 Nov 2017, 3:40pm
by Silent Majority
I remember a joint Mick/Paul interview promoting a London Calling reissue, where Simonon firmly said to Jones "Yeah, but we were right to do it." regarding the sacking.
Re: Rude Boy
Posted: 02 Nov 2017, 3:44pm
by Marky Dread
Inder wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 3:33pm
Marky Dread wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 3:24pm
Inder wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 3:12pm
Marky Dread wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 3:05pm
Joe and Paul must've felt they were good enough without him ... That's pretty big headed of both of them when you consider Mick's output for the band.
Interesting — I'd suggest the sort-of opposite: that they decided to take their chances without their co-founder/co-frontman/main musician than drag out a deteriorating, shitty, situation. Obviously ego has a lot to do with it as well.
Paul's line in Westway (which I think I mentioned in a different thread recently) about the break-up alludes to that — something like "we decided 'we're grown men, we can't put up with this anymore.'"
I think ego has everything to do with it. '"we decided 'we're grown men, we can't put up with this anymore.'" what a complete load of bollocks, so that's how grown men act is it? Dump your friend who basically put you where you are. No grown men would not have turned there back's on a friend like that. No they would've tried other means of reconcilliation but their big heads and ego's got in the way. Grown men? more like kids in a playground.
That's a pretty uncharitable reading of the situation, I think.
Like, Mick's sacking was the culmination of a long period of unhappiness/discontent/whatever. Bernie didn't help with all the manipulative "oh, he says he'll only talk to you through his lawyer" (or whatever) schtick.
Anyways,
MJ had the opportunity to get the band back together when Joe went grovelling to him in 1985. Guess he saw more of a future with BAD.
Sacked from his own band of whom he had put so much of himself into. Then forming a brand new band with new people which takes time and effort especially when you are breaking new ground musically. Not surprising Mick didn't return to The Clash.
Pretty uncharitable I don't think so mate.
Re: Rude Boy
Posted: 02 Nov 2017, 3:49pm
by Inder
Marky Dread wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 3:44pm
Sacked from his own band of whom he had put so much of himself into. Then forming a brand new band with new people which takes time and effort especially when you are breaking new ground musically. Not surprising Mick didn't return to The Clash.
Pretty uncharitable I don't think so mate.
is that you mick
Re: Rude Boy
Posted: 02 Nov 2017, 3:53pm
by Marky Dread
Inder wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 3:49pm
Marky Dread wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 3:44pm
Sacked from his own band of whom he had put so much of himself into. Then forming a brand new band with new people which takes time and effort especially when you are breaking new ground musically. Not surprising Mick didn't return to The Clash.
Pretty uncharitable I don't think so mate.
is that you mick
Yes good here isn't it.
Re: Rude Boy
Posted: 02 Nov 2017, 8:22pm
by Low Down Low
Marky Dread wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 3:35pm
Low Down Low wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 3:26pm
From all i've read it came across as a totally dysfunctional relationship, probably well before the end, and was all but beyond rescue. I see the Joe/Mick partnership as something akin to a marriage, even the tightest marriages sometimes break down though deep down, the two people know they still love each other dearly. Then comes the break up and the remembrance of what it was that drew you to your partner in the first place, there's no going back at that point though.
Not all marriages that drift apart end in separation though. Lot's of bands have continued where various members have a dislike of one another. Given time these things can mend and Joe and Mick became friends again fairly soon afterwards. The pressure of being The Clash and different members musical ambitions and idealogy may have weighed heavily. And an old mother hen (hello Bernie) sticking it's beak in where it wasn't needed.
I'd go along with all that. I think Joe being the romantic dreamer naturally assumed they'd just go and pick up the pieces while pragmatic Mick realised that things can never be the same second time around and so it was time to move on. I dont know enough about other bands to avoid speaking in generalities but I agree about the pressure and ideology. If there is a contemporary rock band that carries as much baggage (in a metaphorical sense) as the Clash did, then I havent heard of them. Dramatic I know, but i'm inclined to think there was a sense of destiny about it from the very beginning, only a surprise in that they managed to survive as long as they did.
Re: Rude Boy
Posted: 02 Nov 2017, 8:42pm
by gkbill
Hello,
Was it Keith Moon who said of his bandmates "I don't have any friends but if I did, it wouldn't be this lot!"?
Re: Rude Boy
Posted: 02 Nov 2017, 9:05pm
by Marky Dread
gkbill wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 8:42pm
Hello,
Was it Keith Moon who said of his bandmates "I don't have any friends but if I did, it wouldn't be this lot!"?
Sounds like Mooney. I still love that clip from "The Kids Are Alright" when the band are being interviewed and they are asked their names, Mooney replies "my friends call me Keith, you can call me John" brilliant stuff.
Re: Rude Boy
Posted: 02 Nov 2017, 9:27pm
by Silent Majority
Marky Dread wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 9:05pm
gkbill wrote: ↑02 Nov 2017, 8:42pm
Hello,
Was it Keith Moon who said of his bandmates "I don't have any friends but if I did, it wouldn't be this lot!"?
Sounds like Mooney. I still love that clip from "The Kids Are Alright" when the band are being interviewed and they are asked their names, Mooney replies "my friends call me Keith, you can call me John" brilliant stuff.
I wouldn't marry these lot!