The Sacking of Mick Jones

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Dr. Medulla
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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by Dr. Medulla » 11 Oct 2017, 4:17pm

Marky Dread wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 12:14pm
Oh yeah it's beyond stupid. But you know with ego it's like "hey we don't need him let's just get another guitar player". I remember when Craig Gannon joined briefly to play bass after Andy Rourke's misdemeanours. Then moving over to rhythm guitar when Andy re-joined. I was stunned when Marr left. Then Craig played on the Moz debut single, that just showed me that Moz wanted to be a solo artist. Craig Gannon has/had played with some great bands/artists.
Gannon's problem with being in the band, as I recall reading, is that he just didn't fit in. He was a loner, perhaps a whiner, too. The arrogance of the remaining members was that after Marr got tossed, they thought they could just draft Roddy Frame. As you said, just another guitar player to play with/for us.
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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by Hammy » 11 Oct 2017, 4:27pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
08 Oct 2017, 1:42pm
Matlock and the Pistols, as Inder said, is definitely one. Perhaps a case could be made for Ace Frehley, the most musically talented member of KISS. Ozzy and Sabbath. Syd Barrett and Pink Floyd.
I think the Ace Frehley comparison is strong: geetar heroes; tunesmiths; rock n' roll behaviour; heart & soul of the group ( to fans )

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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by WestwayKid » 11 Oct 2017, 7:49pm

Marky Dread wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 1:11pm
Kory wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 12:24pm
Marky Dread wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 12:14pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 10:28am
Marky Dread wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 10:22am
As for The Smiths I always felf Morrissey would go solo. You can be the greatest most inventive guitar player in the world but if your not the frontman then it's a hard act to follow. Has Johnny Marr done anything remotely as good good as The Smiths? Not for me he hasn't and yet I adore his playing and he's played with bands I admire like The The and The Pretenders. His solo stuff is okay but doesn't grab me like The Smiths. Say what you like about Moz being a dickwad these days but he is /was a good frontman with charisma. It always comes back to the chemistry between two great writers performers even if like in XTC's case they don't write together. I wonder how Viva Hate! would've sounded with Johnny on guitar?
Morrissey's ego would have led him to eventually leave. Definitely. He loves the spotlight on him and him alone. I'm just talking about how the band pretty much bullied Marr into leaving. Write the songs, play on them, be the business and tour manager because Morrissey keeps firing the others. And he's still, like, 23 years old. When he proposed a break, the other three said no, so he left. Just dumb.
Oh yeah it's beyond stupid. But you know with ego it's like "hey we don't need him let's just get another guitar player". I remember when Craig Gannon joined briefly to play bass after Andy Rourke's misdemeanours. Then moving over to rhythm guitar when Andy re-joined. I was stunned when Marr left. Then Craig played on the Moz debut single, that just showed me that Moz wanted to be a solo artist. Craig Gannon has/had played with some great bands/artists.
He started out with ambitions of being a Lieber/Stoller-esque writing duo with Marr, but I suppose once the spotlight was on he forgot all about that. Their writing relationship was eventually quite separate, often with Moz unveiling his vocal part in studio, rather than in the rehearsal room. The court case also demonstrates his regarding of Rourke and Joyce as merely sidemen, which is one of the craziest notions in the history of pop music, contract or no.
They were every bit integral to the "Smiths" sound for me. What set The Smiths aside from a lot of other dreck in the 80's was the notion they were a complete package typography/imagery/music aversion to plastic moulded injection labels ....
They were as much a part of the sound as Morrissey and Marr. Just listen to most of Rourke's bass lines. People go on and on about how inventive Marr was (and he truly was) and how he could make the complex seem effortless...Rourke was the Marr of the bass guitar. Joyce was the perfect drummer for the group - capable of playing what was required - but always adding his own touch - heavy and commanding when he wanted to be, light and controlled at other times. The Smiths were who they were because somehow 4 incredible individuals came together to make some incredible music. Shame it could not have lasted - but sometimes better to go out on top than to drag it on too long.

That said - I think the end of The Smiths is somewhat sad. Johnny just wanted a break - kid was exhausted (and look how young he was). He had to write the music, be the guitar god, and also effectively be the manager - because whenever they would bring in a manager - Morrissey would get jealous of anyone who seemingly came between his friendship/partnership with Marr and he'd push them away and Marr would be left to pick up the pieces.

If you read enough about the band - I don't think any of them thought Strangeways would be it. If the band had just taken a break - if Marr could have gone off to LA and relaxed and maybe done some of his own stuff or whatever - I really think they would have gone on for at least a few more years.

I don't think Morrissey wanted to be a solo artist at that point. I've always felt that he clung to the band (and his friendship/partnership with Marr) with an almost obsessive passion. The fact that he at least tried to go on without Johnny says a lot about that.

Really - when you think about it - so many of these bands were so young. They went from nothing to the top very quickly. That is a lot to process. I think the best advice anyone could ever give a young band who has made it big is to take a break. Get away from one another. The Clash would have benefited from this. The Beatles would have benefited from this. I just don't think you can be that close and have that mentality that everything you do has to be for the group - that attitude has killed so many great bands.

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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by WestwayKid » 11 Oct 2017, 7:57pm

...but think about it. What if instead of sacking Mick they all would have taken an honest break? Mick could have gone off and done something like BAD - but as a side project. Paul could have gone off and painted. Joe could have gone and done whatever - act, score a film...make a solo album. Maybe Topper could have gotten himself clean sooner. Bernie could have gone and made his own Duck Rock album.

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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by 101Walterton » 11 Oct 2017, 10:04pm

WestwayKid wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 7:57pm
...but think about it. What if instead of sacking Mick they all would have taken an honest break? Mick could have gone off and done something like BAD - but as a side project. Paul could have gone off and painted. Joe could have gone and done whatever - act, score a film...make a solo album. Maybe Topper could have gotten himself clean sooner. Bernie could have gone and made his own Duck Rock album.
I think that one of the worries was that a break would kill Topper. He’s was hardly likely to book himself into a rehab or health farm. I am sure that I read somewhere that the plan was to keep him busy and consumption down.

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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by Marky Dread » 11 Oct 2017, 10:16pm

101Walterton wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 10:04pm
WestwayKid wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 7:57pm
...but think about it. What if instead of sacking Mick they all would have taken an honest break? Mick could have gone off and done something like BAD - but as a side project. Paul could have gone off and painted. Joe could have gone and done whatever - act, score a film...make a solo album. Maybe Topper could have gotten himself clean sooner. Bernie could have gone and made his own Duck Rock album.
I think that one of the worries was that a break would kill Topper. He’s was hardly likely to book himself into a rehab or health farm. I am sure that I read somewhere that the plan was to keep him busy and consumption down.
What if Paul and Mick had sacked Joe?
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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by 101Walterton » 11 Oct 2017, 10:57pm

Marky Dread wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 10:16pm
101Walterton wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 10:04pm
WestwayKid wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 7:57pm
...but think about it. What if instead of sacking Mick they all would have taken an honest break? Mick could have gone off and done something like BAD - but as a side project. Paul could have gone off and painted. Joe could have gone and done whatever - act, score a film...make a solo album. Maybe Topper could have gotten himself clean sooner. Bernie could have gone and made his own Duck Rock album.
I think that one of the worries was that a break would kill Topper. He’s was hardly likely to book himself into a rehab or health farm. I am sure that I read somewhere that the plan was to keep him busy and consumption down.
What if Paul and Mick had sacked Joe?
TIBAD would have been TITC

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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by Low Down Low » 13 Oct 2017, 4:51am

Dont know if its been brought up but thought the sacking of John Cale from VU was worth a mention here.

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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by Kory » 13 Oct 2017, 2:26pm

WestwayKid wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 7:49pm
Really - when you think about it - so many of these bands were so young. They went from nothing to the top very quickly. That is a lot to process. I think the best advice anyone could ever give a young band who has made it big is to take a break. Get away from one another. The Clash would have benefited from this. The Beatles would have benefited from this. I just don't think you can be that close and have that mentality that everything you do has to be for the group - that attitude has killed so many great bands.
This is my go-to thought when people harshly criticize bands. I have to point out that hardly anybody makes smart or correct choices when they're 19–28. Everybody forgets that these people aren't gods, but totally naive kids thrown into what's basically a traumatic, warlike situation. I'd like to see anyone handle that with grace.
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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by WestwayKid » 13 Oct 2017, 2:42pm

Consider this fact. Abbey Road was released on September 26th, 1969.

Ringo Starr was 29.
John Lennon was 28.
Paul McCartney was 27.
George Harrison was 26.

Wow.

They had been together since they were literally kids. Think about what they experienced from 1962 through 1969.

Johnny Marr was 23 years old when Strangeways was released.

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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by 101Walterton » 13 Oct 2017, 3:40pm

Kory wrote:
13 Oct 2017, 2:26pm
WestwayKid wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 7:49pm
Really - when you think about it - so many of these bands were so young. They went from nothing to the top very quickly. That is a lot to process. I think the best advice anyone could ever give a young band who has made it big is to take a break. Get away from one another. The Clash would have benefited from this. The Beatles would have benefited from this. I just don't think you can be that close and have that mentality that everything you do has to be for the group - that attitude has killed so many great bands.
This is my go-to thought when people harshly criticize bands. I have to point out that hardly anybody makes smart or correct choices when they're 19–28. Everybody forgets that these people aren't gods, but totally naive kids thrown into what's basically a traumatic, warlike situation. I'd like to see anyone handle that with grace.
It is a very good point.
If you take Madness as an example, they were a very young band in 1979 and achieved a lot of chart success between 1979-1983. Mike Barson left as he needed a break and the band carried on enjoying chart success on a gradual decline until they split in 1986.
They reformed the original line up in 1992 and are still going strong (albeit without Chas recently).
Back to the point. The band were together 7 years then took a break before getting back together and second time round they have been going 25 years and counting.

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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by WestwayKid » 18 Oct 2017, 11:42am

There is an element of real tragedy in the whole affair. Mick and Joe were meant to make music together. I've heard Mick mention their writing process several times: Joe on one end of a table hunched over a typewriter - Mick on the other end with a guitar. Joe would finish a lyric - hand it to Mick who would then write the music. I'm sure that story has been romanticized somewhat - but I like to think it happened that way.

If you read enough books about Joe - it seems like he lived with that deep regret for the rest of his life - like he accepted that what happened was entirely his fault and his burden to carry alone. That is very sad.

I'm glad they were able to mend fences relatively quick and to renew their friendship - just very sad they were never really able to make music together again (other than working on the 2nd BAD LP).

Then there is the story of Mick and Joe writing together again just prior to Joe's death. I guess we'll forever have to wonder what those songs would have sounded like if they had ever been recorded.

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