The Sacking of Mick Jones

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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by white man » 11 Oct 2017, 8:42am


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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by Dr. Medulla » 11 Oct 2017, 9:06am

From an outsider's very distant position, along with the benefit of time, it's amazing how many bands boot someone out or quit altogether when the more sensible solution is to take a break, let people pursue other ventures for a bit, then come back because they want to. The Beatles would have benefited from letting everyone do a couple solo albums, let tensions cool, and then see if there was still a desire to record together. Johnny Marr was exhausted and needed time off, but instead he was forced to quit the Smiths. And if Mick was becoming too much of a pain in the ass, maybe everyone just needed to spend some time apart. You would think that this is a perspective more conducive with being artists, but the mentality that you're in or out because the band's operations can't pause is more businesslike.
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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by white man » 11 Oct 2017, 9:54am

Dr. Medulla wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 9:06am
From an outsider's very distant position, along with the benefit of time, it's amazing how many bands boot someone out or quit altogether when the more sensible solution is to take a break, let people pursue other ventures for a bit, then come back because they want to. The Beatles would have benefited from letting everyone do a couple solo albums, let tensions cool, and then see if there was still a desire to record together. Johnny Marr was exhausted and needed time off, but instead he was forced to quit the Smiths. And if Mick was becoming too much of a pain in the ass, maybe everyone just needed to spend some time apart. You would think that this is a perspective more conducive with being artists, but the mentality that you're in or out because the band's operations can't pause is more businesslike.
Could be true. Were there external influences pushing Joe and Paul in this direction? Sony? Bernie?. Joe's admission years later that a break should have been the answer only adds fuel to the fire. Did he think this at the time. Were he and Paul coerced.

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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by Marky Dread » 11 Oct 2017, 10:12am

white man wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 8:42am
One more time,just for the record
http://www.sputnikworld.com/The_Sputnik_Story_4_5.html
I loved SSS.
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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by Marky Dread » 11 Oct 2017, 10:22am

Dr. Medulla wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 9:06am
From an outsider's very distant position, along with the benefit of time, it's amazing how many bands boot someone out or quit altogether when the more sensible solution is to take a break, let people pursue other ventures for a bit, then come back because they want to. The Beatles would have benefited from letting everyone do a couple solo albums, let tensions cool, and then see if there was still a desire to record together. Johnny Marr was exhausted and needed time off, but instead he was forced to quit the Smiths. And if Mick was becoming too much of a pain in the ass, maybe everyone just needed to spend some time apart. You would think that this is a perspective more conducive with being artists, but the mentality that you're in or out because the band's operations can't pause is more businesslike.
Still if The Beatles had sacked McCartney and released Cut the Crap we would have something more to talk about. :mrgreen:

As for The Smiths I always felf Morrissey would go solo. You can be the greatest most inventive guitar player in the world but if your not the frontman then it's a hard act to follow. Has Johnny Marr done anything remotely as good good as The Smiths? Not for me he hasn't and yet I adore his playing and he's played with bands I admire like The The and The Pretenders. His solo stuff is okay but doesn't grab me like The Smiths. Say what you like about Moz being a dickwad these days but he is /was a good frontman with charisma. It always comes back to the chemistry between two great writers performers even if like in XTC's case they don't write together. I wonder how Viva Hate! would've sounded with Johnny on guitar?
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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by Dr. Medulla » 11 Oct 2017, 10:28am

Marky Dread wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 10:22am
As for The Smiths I always felf Morrissey would go solo. You can be the greatest most inventive guitar player in the world but if your not the frontman then it's a hard act to follow. Has Johnny Marr done anything remotely as good good as The Smiths? Not for me he hasn't and yet I adore his playing and he's played with bands I admire like The The and The Pretenders. His solo stuff is okay but doesn't grab me like The Smiths. Say what you like about Moz being a dickwad these days but he is /was a good frontman with charisma. It always comes back to the chemistry between two great writers performers even if like in XTC's case they don't write together. I wonder how Viva Hate! would've sounded with Johnny on guitar?
Morrissey's ego would have led him to eventually leave. Definitely. He loves the spotlight on him and him alone. I'm just talking about how the band pretty much bullied Marr into leaving. Write the songs, play on them, be the business and tour manager because Morrissey keeps firing the others. And he's still, like, 23 years old. When he proposed a break, the other three said no, so he left. Just dumb.
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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by Heston » 11 Oct 2017, 10:45am

Dr. Medulla wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 9:06am
From an outsider's very distant position, along with the benefit of time, it's amazing how many bands boot someone out or quit altogether when the more sensible solution is to take a break, let people pursue other ventures for a bit, then come back because they want to. The Beatles would have benefited from letting everyone do a couple solo albums, let tensions cool, and then see if there was still a desire to record together. Johnny Marr was exhausted and needed time off, but instead he was forced to quit the Smiths. And if Mick was becoming too much of a pain in the ass, maybe everyone just needed to spend some time apart. You would think that this is a perspective more conducive with being artists, but the mentality that you're in or out because the band's operations can't pause is more businesslike.
Don't forget, the Clash had been in limbo for nearly a year before Mick's dismissal. Aside from a few dates around the US Festival and that pointless home movie, they had been inactive.
So what does Marconi playing the mamba mean? "Marconi" is referring to the radio itself. It plays a deadly snake. The snake - the mamba - is slithering from the speakers. Ready to kill greedy corporations. Ready to free the world of all that is evil, and to leave behind only the youthful idealism encompassed by the tenets of rock and roll.

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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by Inder » 11 Oct 2017, 11:19am

Dr. Medulla wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 9:06am
From an outsider's very distant position, along with the benefit of time, it's amazing how many bands boot someone out or quit altogether when the more sensible solution is to take a break, let people pursue other ventures for a bit, then come back because they want to. The Beatles would have benefited from letting everyone do a couple solo albums, let tensions cool, and then see if there was still a desire to record together. Johnny Marr was exhausted and needed time off, but instead he was forced to quit the Smiths. And if Mick was becoming too much of a pain in the ass, maybe everyone just needed to spend some time apart. You would think that this is a perspective more conducive with being artists, but the mentality that you're in or out because the band's operations can't pause is more businesslike.
I think MJ made a similar argument in Westway -- that they should have all taken some time apart and gone on holiday.

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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by Silent Majority » 11 Oct 2017, 11:27am

You can argue about the vitality of the original burst of a band like the Strokes, but for me, they were dead on their feet after a hiatus similar to what would have unquestionably done the Clash good.
'But also: hey dude, you can just go looking for more glasses. They're all free now. '

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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by Dr. Medulla » 11 Oct 2017, 11:48am

Heston wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 10:45am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 9:06am
From an outsider's very distant position, along with the benefit of time, it's amazing how many bands boot someone out or quit altogether when the more sensible solution is to take a break, let people pursue other ventures for a bit, then come back because they want to. The Beatles would have benefited from letting everyone do a couple solo albums, let tensions cool, and then see if there was still a desire to record together. Johnny Marr was exhausted and needed time off, but instead he was forced to quit the Smiths. And if Mick was becoming too much of a pain in the ass, maybe everyone just needed to spend some time apart. You would think that this is a perspective more conducive with being artists, but the mentality that you're in or out because the band's operations can't pause is more businesslike.
Don't forget, the Clash had been in limbo for nearly a year before Mick's dismissal. Aside from a few dates around the US Festival and that pointless home movie, they had been inactive.
But hadn't there been pressure from Bernie to get things going again? (Maybe I'm wrong on this point.)
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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by Marky Dread » 11 Oct 2017, 12:14pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 10:28am
Marky Dread wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 10:22am
As for The Smiths I always felf Morrissey would go solo. You can be the greatest most inventive guitar player in the world but if your not the frontman then it's a hard act to follow. Has Johnny Marr done anything remotely as good good as The Smiths? Not for me he hasn't and yet I adore his playing and he's played with bands I admire like The The and The Pretenders. His solo stuff is okay but doesn't grab me like The Smiths. Say what you like about Moz being a dickwad these days but he is /was a good frontman with charisma. It always comes back to the chemistry between two great writers performers even if like in XTC's case they don't write together. I wonder how Viva Hate! would've sounded with Johnny on guitar?
Morrissey's ego would have led him to eventually leave. Definitely. He loves the spotlight on him and him alone. I'm just talking about how the band pretty much bullied Marr into leaving. Write the songs, play on them, be the business and tour manager because Morrissey keeps firing the others. And he's still, like, 23 years old. When he proposed a break, the other three said no, so he left. Just dumb.
Oh yeah it's beyond stupid. But you know with ego it's like "hey we don't need him let's just get another guitar player". I remember when Craig Gannon joined briefly to play bass after Andy Rourke's misdemeanours. Then moving over to rhythm guitar when Andy re-joined. I was stunned when Marr left. Then Craig played on the Moz debut single, that just showed me that Moz wanted to be a solo artist. Craig Gannon has/had played with some great bands/artists.
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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by Kory » 11 Oct 2017, 12:24pm

Marky Dread wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 12:14pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 10:28am
Marky Dread wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 10:22am
As for The Smiths I always felf Morrissey would go solo. You can be the greatest most inventive guitar player in the world but if your not the frontman then it's a hard act to follow. Has Johnny Marr done anything remotely as good good as The Smiths? Not for me he hasn't and yet I adore his playing and he's played with bands I admire like The The and The Pretenders. His solo stuff is okay but doesn't grab me like The Smiths. Say what you like about Moz being a dickwad these days but he is /was a good frontman with charisma. It always comes back to the chemistry between two great writers performers even if like in XTC's case they don't write together. I wonder how Viva Hate! would've sounded with Johnny on guitar?
Morrissey's ego would have led him to eventually leave. Definitely. He loves the spotlight on him and him alone. I'm just talking about how the band pretty much bullied Marr into leaving. Write the songs, play on them, be the business and tour manager because Morrissey keeps firing the others. And he's still, like, 23 years old. When he proposed a break, the other three said no, so he left. Just dumb.
Oh yeah it's beyond stupid. But you know with ego it's like "hey we don't need him let's just get another guitar player". I remember when Craig Gannon joined briefly to play bass after Andy Rourke's misdemeanours. Then moving over to rhythm guitar when Andy re-joined. I was stunned when Marr left. Then Craig played on the Moz debut single, that just showed me that Moz wanted to be a solo artist. Craig Gannon has/had played with some great bands/artists.
He started out with ambitions of being a Lieber/Stoller-esque writing duo with Marr, but I suppose once the spotlight was on he forgot all about that. Their writing relationship was eventually quite separate, often with Moz unveiling his vocal part in studio, rather than in the rehearsal room. The court case also demonstrates his regarding of Rourke and Joyce as merely sidemen, which is one of the craziest notions in the history of pop music, contract or no.
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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by Marky Dread » 11 Oct 2017, 1:11pm

Kory wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 12:24pm
Marky Dread wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 12:14pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 10:28am
Marky Dread wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 10:22am
As for The Smiths I always felf Morrissey would go solo. You can be the greatest most inventive guitar player in the world but if your not the frontman then it's a hard act to follow. Has Johnny Marr done anything remotely as good good as The Smiths? Not for me he hasn't and yet I adore his playing and he's played with bands I admire like The The and The Pretenders. His solo stuff is okay but doesn't grab me like The Smiths. Say what you like about Moz being a dickwad these days but he is /was a good frontman with charisma. It always comes back to the chemistry between two great writers performers even if like in XTC's case they don't write together. I wonder how Viva Hate! would've sounded with Johnny on guitar?
Morrissey's ego would have led him to eventually leave. Definitely. He loves the spotlight on him and him alone. I'm just talking about how the band pretty much bullied Marr into leaving. Write the songs, play on them, be the business and tour manager because Morrissey keeps firing the others. And he's still, like, 23 years old. When he proposed a break, the other three said no, so he left. Just dumb.
Oh yeah it's beyond stupid. But you know with ego it's like "hey we don't need him let's just get another guitar player". I remember when Craig Gannon joined briefly to play bass after Andy Rourke's misdemeanours. Then moving over to rhythm guitar when Andy re-joined. I was stunned when Marr left. Then Craig played on the Moz debut single, that just showed me that Moz wanted to be a solo artist. Craig Gannon has/had played with some great bands/artists.
He started out with ambitions of being a Lieber/Stoller-esque writing duo with Marr, but I suppose once the spotlight was on he forgot all about that. Their writing relationship was eventually quite separate, often with Moz unveiling his vocal part in studio, rather than in the rehearsal room. The court case also demonstrates his regarding of Rourke and Joyce as merely sidemen, which is one of the craziest notions in the history of pop music, contract or no.
They were every bit integral to the "Smiths" sound for me. What set The Smiths aside from a lot of other dreck in the 80's was the notion they were a complete package typography/imagery/music aversion to plastic moulded injection labels ....
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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by Kory » 11 Oct 2017, 1:24pm

Marky Dread wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 1:11pm
Kory wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 12:24pm
Marky Dread wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 12:14pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 10:28am
Marky Dread wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 10:22am
As for The Smiths I always felf Morrissey would go solo. You can be the greatest most inventive guitar player in the world but if your not the frontman then it's a hard act to follow. Has Johnny Marr done anything remotely as good good as The Smiths? Not for me he hasn't and yet I adore his playing and he's played with bands I admire like The The and The Pretenders. His solo stuff is okay but doesn't grab me like The Smiths. Say what you like about Moz being a dickwad these days but he is /was a good frontman with charisma. It always comes back to the chemistry between two great writers performers even if like in XTC's case they don't write together. I wonder how Viva Hate! would've sounded with Johnny on guitar?
Morrissey's ego would have led him to eventually leave. Definitely. He loves the spotlight on him and him alone. I'm just talking about how the band pretty much bullied Marr into leaving. Write the songs, play on them, be the business and tour manager because Morrissey keeps firing the others. And he's still, like, 23 years old. When he proposed a break, the other three said no, so he left. Just dumb.
Oh yeah it's beyond stupid. But you know with ego it's like "hey we don't need him let's just get another guitar player". I remember when Craig Gannon joined briefly to play bass after Andy Rourke's misdemeanours. Then moving over to rhythm guitar when Andy re-joined. I was stunned when Marr left. Then Craig played on the Moz debut single, that just showed me that Moz wanted to be a solo artist. Craig Gannon has/had played with some great bands/artists.
He started out with ambitions of being a Lieber/Stoller-esque writing duo with Marr, but I suppose once the spotlight was on he forgot all about that. Their writing relationship was eventually quite separate, often with Moz unveiling his vocal part in studio, rather than in the rehearsal room. The court case also demonstrates his regarding of Rourke and Joyce as merely sidemen, which is one of the craziest notions in the history of pop music, contract or no.
They were every bit integral to the "Smiths" sound for me. What set The Smiths aside from a lot of other dreck in the 80's was the notion they were a complete package typography/imagery/music aversion to plastic moulded injection labels ....
Rourke, especially. Marr had some cool guitar parts, but the bass counterpoint on many of them pushed the songs to stellar levels.
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Re: The Sacking of Mick Jones

Post by oliver » 11 Oct 2017, 4:16pm

Marky Dread wrote:
11 Oct 2017, 12:14pm
Oh yeah it's beyond stupid. But you know with ego it's like "hey we don't need him let's just get another guitar player". I remember when Craig Gannon joined briefly to play bass after Andy Rourke's misdemeanours. Then moving over to rhythm guitar when Andy re-joined. I was stunned when Marr left. Then Craig played on the Moz debut single, that just showed me that Moz wanted to be a solo artist. Craig Gannon has/had played with some great bands/artists.
I don't think Craig Gannon was on the debut Moz single - it was all Vini Reilly wasn't it? He did play Morrissey's first solo show though.

They tried to keep The Smiths going with Ivor Perry on guitar but abandoned it very quickly so I'm not sure Morrissey was anxious to go solo at that point (but it would probably have happened at some point)
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