"I'm gonna blow this town to plaster"

[Marky Dread]

Every time VH and I go to the most Moranic and Jortsic pool hall, I make sure to put really gay stuff on the jukebox.

Some douchebag at a bar in Chicago once put in what must have been 20 dollars worth of Doobie Brothers just ahead of the three damn Clash songs I wanted to hear before I left. That was no damn fun.

And once the Doobies were done, people looked around to see the agitated guy finally enjoying "Lover's Rock," "Last Night in London," and "3 Card Trick."

It was Cool Confusion, Red Angel Dragnet, and Play To Win!

It really is horrible that I like RAD with sincere irony* and that PTW has achieved kitsch godhood for me.

*Despite my efforts to promote the term and concept for you, it hasn't caught on amongst my crowd.

RAD is pretty rad really if only those vocals were removed. I mean that sincerely with the utmost irony.

[Kory]

Some douchebag at a bar in Chicago once put in what must have been 20 dollars worth of Doobie Brothers just ahead of the three damn Clash songs I wanted to hear before I left. That was no damn fun.

And once the Doobies were done, people looked around to see the agitated guy finally enjoying "Lover's Rock," "Last Night in London," and "3 Card Trick."

It was Cool Confusion, Red Angel Dragnet, and Play To Win!

It really is horrible that I like RAD with sincere irony* and that PTW has achieved kitsch godhood for me.

*Despite my efforts to promote the term and concept for you, it hasn't caught on amongst my crowd.

RAD is pretty rad really if only those vocals were removed. I mean that sincerely with the utmost irony.

I really wish they had kept it together a little longer. I would have liked to see what they might have done with groove-based stuff like RAD and Sean Flynn on the next album.

[Marky Dread]

Some douchebag at a bar in Chicago once put in what must have been 20 dollars worth of Doobie Brothers just ahead of the three damn Clash songs I wanted to hear before I left. That was no damn fun.

And once the Doobies were done, people looked around to see the agitated guy finally enjoying "Lover's Rock," "Last Night in London," and "3 Card Trick."

It was Cool Confusion, Red Angel Dragnet, and Play To Win!

It really is horrible that I like RAD with sincere irony* and that PTW has achieved kitsch godhood for me.

*Despite my efforts to promote the term and concept for you, it hasn't caught on amongst my crowd.

RAD is pretty rad really if only those vocals were removed. I mean that sincerely with the utmost irony.

I really wish they had kept it together a little longer. I would have liked to see what they might have done with groove-based stuff like RAD and Sean Flynn on the next album.[/quote]

If only they hadn't turned Ivan Meets G.I. Joe into Play to Win.

[NoMoreHugh]

Self-sabotage is a hallmark of bipolar disorder, which we now know Joe suffered from and maybe Bernie does as well. Joe had peaked out on his manic bender and was getting ready for a long and nasty depressive dive, so he was more than happy to have Bernie do the Hershey squirts all over his record. It gave him a good excuse to go to his room and boo-hoo for a few years. Or good cover, more accurately.

But by any reasonable yardstick, there's only one real difference between Cut the Crap and Combat Rock; one had a professional producer with impeccable credentials, untouchable studio chops and a proven track record of saving botch-jobs come in and rescue the risible pile of unlistenable, enervated nonsense the band had dribbled down their legs and the other had Bernie Rhodes. If Epic were smart and hired a real producer to make sense of the mess Bernie handed them it might have been a totally different story. It might have even gotten Joe out from under the comforter.

Its funny you should say "sabotage" as i thought i was the only one that held this theory. I have never bought the idea that it was incompetance or thinking they were creating something unique or ran out of time. I mentioned sabotage on a forum a few times before in the past it might have been here, and it was quickly dismissed as ridiculous.
I never new from who or for why or what reason but this album IMHO is produced with competance and with a purpose for negative gain, but one things for sure to me, the person responsible would know full well what the result of that album would be once the fans heard it.
Every clash album before this one opens with a good number and for this album they choose an out of tune dictator that sounds a mess - someone knew what they were doing. The album name would have to have the word crap in it as well, its almost a taunt.

Now i know nothing about producing music but i know shit production when i hear it and i have full confidence that all of the clash camp know what shit sounds like too.

a hallmark of bipolar disorder would certainly explain a few things.

[Marky Dread]

Self-sabotage is a hallmark of bipolar disorder, which we now know Joe suffered from and maybe Bernie does as well. Joe had peaked out on his manic bender and was getting ready for a long and nasty depressive dive, so he was more than happy to have Bernie do the Hershey squirts all over his record. It gave him a good excuse to go to his room and boo-hoo for a few years. Or good cover, more accurately.

But by any reasonable yardstick, there's only one real difference between Cut the Crap and Combat Rock; one had a professional producer with impeccable credentials, untouchable studio chops and a proven track record of saving botch-jobs come in and rescue the risible pile of unlistenable, enervated nonsense the band had dribbled down their legs and the other had Bernie Rhodes. If Epic were smart and hired a real producer to make sense of the mess Bernie handed them it might have been a totally different story. It might have even gotten Joe out from under the comforter.

Its funny you should say "sabotage" as i thought i was the only one that held this theory. I have never bought the idea that it was incompetance or thinking they were creating something unique or ran out of time. I mentioned sabotage on a forum a few times before in the past it might have been here, and it was quickly dismissed as ridiculous.
I never new from who or for why or what reason but this album IMHO is produced with competance and with a purpose for negative gain, but one things for sure to me, the person responsible would know full well what the result of that album would be once the fans heard it.
Every clash album before this one opens with a good number and for this album they choose an out of tune dictator that sounds a mess - someone knew what they were doing. The album name would have to have the word crap in it as well, its almost a taunt.

Now i know nothing about producing music but i know shit production when i hear it and i have full confidence that all of the clash camp know what shit sounds like too.

a hallmark of bipolar disorder would certainly explain a few things.

Being Bipolar myself I understand where you guys are coming from. But I don't buy into the competence angle at all and here's my take. Joe sacked the only guy in my opinion who knew fuck all about production and that was Mick. As far as I know Joe had produced a Little Roosters album and maybe had a hand in the Janie Jones single however those records are a million miles away from what was being attempted by Bernie Rhodes on CtC. Joe most likely heard what a piece of crap Bernie had turned the new Clash songs into and in no way wanted Bernie to succeed so this is where his Bipolar would've kicked in by going along with Bernie's ideas to compete with TIBAD. Now remember when Joe first heard Mick's BAD demos and said it was the biggest pile of crap he'd ever heard? Why would he want his album to sound like that? - The irony being one of the reasons for firing Mick aside from his lateness was because of musical differences over him acquiring a new synthesizer.

[IkarisOne]

Self-sabotage is a hallmark of bipolar disorder, which we now know Joe suffered from and maybe Bernie does as well. Joe had peaked out on his manic bender and was getting ready for a long and nasty depressive dive, so he was more than happy to have Bernie do the Hershey squirts all over his record. It gave him a good excuse to go to his room and boo-hoo for a few years. Or good cover, more accurately.

But by any reasonable yardstick, there's only one real difference between Cut the Crap and Combat Rock; one had a professional producer with impeccable credentials, untouchable studio chops and a proven track record of saving botch-jobs come in and rescue the risible pile of unlistenable, enervated nonsense the band had dribbled down their legs and the other had Bernie Rhodes. If Epic were smart and hired a real producer to make sense of the mess Bernie handed them it might have been a totally different story. It might have even gotten Joe out from under the comforter.

Its funny you should say "sabotage" as i thought i was the only one that held this theory. I have never bought the idea that it was incompetance or thinking they were creating something unique or ran out of time. I mentioned sabotage on a forum a few times before in the past it might have been here, and it was quickly dismissed as ridiculous.
I never new from who or for why or what reason but this album IMHO is produced with competance and with a purpose for negative gain, but one things for sure to me, the person responsible would know full well what the result of that album would be once the fans heard it.
Every clash album before this one opens with a good number and for this album they choose an out of tune dictator that sounds a mess - someone knew what they were doing. The album name would have to have the word crap in it as well, its almost a taunt.

Now i know nothing about producing music but i know shit production when i hear it and i have full confidence that all of the clash camp know what shit sounds like too.

a hallmark of bipolar disorder would certainly explain a few things.

Being Bipolar myself I understand where you guys are coming from. But I don't buy into the competence angle at all and here's my take. Joe sacked the only guy in my opinion who knew fuck all about production and that was Mick. As far as I know Joe had produced a Little Roosters album and maybe had a hand in the Janie Jones single however those records are a million miles away from what was being attempted by Bernie Rhodes on CtC. Joe most likely heard what a piece of crap Bernie had turned the new Clash songs into and in no way wanted Bernie to succeed so this is where his Bipolar would've kicked in by going along with Bernie's ideas to compete with TIBAD. Now remember when Joe first heard Mick's BAD demos and said it was the biggest pile of crap he'd ever heard? Why would he want his album to sound like that? - The irony being one of the reasons for firing Mick aside from his lateness was because of musical differences over him acquiring a new synthesizer.

Mick didn't know anything about production. They had very, very costly pros in the studio cleaning up his messes and when they didn't - Theatre of Hate, Ellen Foley- it all sounds like the Amateur Hour. Even with Sandinista Bill Price couldn't make it sound like anything but extremely costly 4 track demos featuring Heroin Headon and his Hopalong Hi-Hat Orchestra.

Joe's depressive crash began summer of 84, which is the real reason why everything dragged to a halt. I think all the rest of the stories you hear are just more of the endless avalanche of Clash Lies®, covering for Joe's basic inability to function. There's no way waiting until the winter to record was in the game plan, no matter what was going on with Mick's lawsuits. Everyone in the Clash camp said the plan was to hit the studio as soon as the tour was over. They had more than an album's worth of material in the bag, road-ready to go. The problem was Joe was paralyzed. Running around sobbing under palm trees in Spain is not the hallmark of a punk rock warlord. He was a wreck, absolutely shattered. And there's no way anyone in their right mind thinks Dictator is releaseable.

[NoMoreHugh]

Self-sabotage is a hallmark of bipolar disorder, which we now know Joe suffered from and maybe Bernie does as well. Joe had peaked out on his manic bender and was getting ready for a long and nasty depressive dive, so he was more than happy to have Bernie do the Hershey squirts all over his record. It gave him a good excuse to go to his room and boo-hoo for a few years. Or good cover, more accurately.

But by any reasonable yardstick, there's only one real difference between Cut the Crap and Combat Rock; one had a professional producer with impeccable credentials, untouchable studio chops and a proven track record of saving botch-jobs come in and rescue the risible pile of unlistenable, enervated nonsense the band had dribbled down their legs and the other had Bernie Rhodes. If Epic were smart and hired a real producer to make sense of the mess Bernie handed them it might have been a totally different story. It might have even gotten Joe out from under the comforter.

Its funny you should say "sabotage" as i thought i was the only one that held this theory. I have never bought the idea that it was incompetance or thinking they were creating something unique or ran out of time. I mentioned sabotage on a forum a few times before in the past it might have been here, and it was quickly dismissed as ridiculous.
I never new from who or for why or what reason but this album IMHO is produced with competance and with a purpose for negative gain, but one things for sure to me, the person responsible would know full well what the result of that album would be once the fans heard it.
Every clash album before this one opens with a good number and for this album they choose an out of tune dictator that sounds a mess - someone knew what they were doing. The album name would have to have the word crap in it as well, its almost a taunt.

Now i know nothing about producing music but i know shit production when i hear it and i have full confidence that all of the clash camp know what shit sounds like too.

a hallmark of bipolar disorder would certainly explain a few things.

Being Bipolar myself I understand where you guys are coming from. But I don't buy into the competence angle at all and here's my take. Joe sacked the only guy in my opinion who knew fuck all about production and that was Mick. As far as I know Joe had produced a Little Roosters album and maybe had a hand in the Janie Jones single however those records are a million miles away from what was being attempted by Bernie Rhodes on CtC. Joe most likely heard what a piece of crap Bernie had turned the new Clash songs into and in no way wanted Bernie to succeed so this is where his Bipolar would've kicked in by going along with Bernie's ideas to compete with TIBAD. Now remember when Joe first heard Mick's BAD demos and said it was the biggest pile of crap he'd ever heard? Why would he want his album to sound like that? - The irony being one of the reasons for firing Mick aside from his lateness was because of musical differences over him acquiring a new synthesizer.

Mick didn't know anything about production. They had very, very costly pros in the studio cleaning up his messes and when they didn't - Theatre of Hate, Ellen Foley- it all sounds like the Amateur Hour. Even with Sandinista Bill Price couldn't make it sound like anything but extremely costly 4 track demos featuring Heroin Headon and his Hopalong Hi-Hat Orchestra.

Joe's depressive crash began summer of 84, which is the real reason why everything dragged to a halt. I think all the rest of the stories you hear are just more of the endless avalanche of Clash Lies®, covering for Joe's basic inability to function. There's no way waiting until the winter to record was in the game plan, no matter what was going on with Mick's lawsuits. Everyone in the Clash camp said the plan was to hit the studio as soon as the tour was over. They had more than an album's worth of material in the bag, road-ready to go. The problem was Joe was paralyzed. Running around sobbing under palm trees in Spain is not the hallmark of a punk rock warlord. He was a wreck, absolutely shattered. And there's no way anyone in their right mind thinks Dictator is releaseable.

Achieving a great production isnt really my problem with this album but more that the production was designed with the purpose to ruin great songs.
They could have got the band to play and capture the songs live in the studio. This wouldnt need a great producer and it would have been quick, cheap and would have been consistent with there back to basics campaign.
The first three stranglers albums were done in this way and i think they are the most exciting albums and sound the best. The record company did this for a fast and cheap release and to maximise profits and it was well recieved as fans wanted the live sound of the band - 3 albums were released with only 6 months apart from each other.

[Marky Dread]

Self-sabotage is a hallmark of bipolar disorder, which we now know Joe suffered from and maybe Bernie does as well. Joe had peaked out on his manic bender and was getting ready for a long and nasty depressive dive, so he was more than happy to have Bernie do the Hershey squirts all over his record. It gave him a good excuse to go to his room and boo-hoo for a few years. Or good cover, more accurately.

But by any reasonable yardstick, there's only one real difference between Cut the Crap and Combat Rock; one had a professional producer with impeccable credentials, untouchable studio chops and a proven track record of saving botch-jobs come in and rescue the risible pile of unlistenable, enervated nonsense the band had dribbled down their legs and the other had Bernie Rhodes. If Epic were smart and hired a real producer to make sense of the mess Bernie handed them it might have been a totally different story. It might have even gotten Joe out from under the comforter.

Its funny you should say "sabotage" as i thought i was the only one that held this theory. I have never bought the idea that it was incompetance or thinking they were creating something unique or ran out of time. I mentioned sabotage on a forum a few times before in the past it might have been here, and it was quickly dismissed as ridiculous.
I never new from who or for why or what reason but this album IMHO is produced with competance and with a purpose for negative gain, but one things for sure to me, the person responsible would know full well what the result of that album would be once the fans heard it.
Every clash album before this one opens with a good number and for this album they choose an out of tune dictator that sounds a mess - someone knew what they were doing. The album name would have to have the word crap in it as well, its almost a taunt.

Now i know nothing about producing music but i know shit production when i hear it and i have full confidence that all of the clash camp know what shit sounds like too.

a hallmark of bipolar disorder would certainly explain a few things.

Being Bipolar myself I understand where you guys are coming from. But I don't buy into the competence angle at all and here's my take. Joe sacked the only guy in my opinion who knew fuck all about production and that was Mick. As far as I know Joe had produced a Little Roosters album and maybe had a hand in the Janie Jones single however those records are a million miles away from what was being attempted by Bernie Rhodes on CtC. Joe most likely heard what a piece of crap Bernie had turned the new Clash songs into and in no way wanted Bernie to succeed so this is where his Bipolar would've kicked in by going along with Bernie's ideas to compete with TIBAD. Now remember when Joe first heard Mick's BAD demos and said it was the biggest pile of crap he'd ever heard? Why would he want his album to sound like that? - The irony being one of the reasons for firing Mick aside from his lateness was because of musical differences over him acquiring a new synthesizer.

Mick didn't know anything about production. They had very, very costly pros in the studio cleaning up his messes and when they didn't - Theatre of Hate, Ellen Foley- it all sounds like the Amateur Hour. Even with Sandinista Bill Price couldn't make it sound like anything but extremely costly 4 track demos featuring Heroin Headon and his Hopalong Hi-Hat Orchestra.

Joe's depressive crash began summer of 84, which is the real reason why everything dragged to a halt. I think all the rest of the stories you hear are just more of the endless avalanche of Clash Lies®, covering for Joe's basic inability to function. There's no way waiting until the winter to record was in the game plan, no matter what was going on with Mick's lawsuits. Everyone in the Clash camp said the plan was to hit the studio as soon as the tour was over. They had more than an album's worth of material in the bag, road-ready to go. The problem was Joe was paralyzed. Running around sobbing under palm trees in Spain is not the hallmark of a punk rock warlord. He was a wreck, absolutely shattered. And there's no way anyone in their right mind thinks Dictator is releaseable.

If Mick could or couldn't produce isn't the point. Mick was the only one paying attention to what was going on production wise and the guy who took an interest. Maybe he had delusions of granduer when it came to being in the chair himself but at least he was watching. I'd put good money on Mick being to able to produce something better than Bernie for fuck sake. Handing over to Bernie was fucking madness beyond madness. He literally took over even changing the album title at the last minute without informing the the group. Give me Mick's version of Rat Patrol over Bernies CtC any day.

[IkarisOne]

Self-sabotage is a hallmark of bipolar disorder, which we now know Joe suffered from and maybe Bernie does as well. Joe had peaked out on his manic bender and was getting ready for a long and nasty depressive dive, so he was more than happy to have Bernie do the Hershey squirts all over his record. It gave him a good excuse to go to his room and boo-hoo for a few years. Or good cover, more accurately.

But by any reasonable yardstick, there's only one real difference between Cut the Crap and Combat Rock; one had a professional producer with impeccable credentials, untouchable studio chops and a proven track record of saving botch-jobs come in and rescue the risible pile of unlistenable, enervated nonsense the band had dribbled down their legs and the other had Bernie Rhodes. If Epic were smart and hired a real producer to make sense of the mess Bernie handed them it might have been a totally different story. It might have even gotten Joe out from under the comforter.

Its funny you should say "sabotage" as i thought i was the only one that held this theory. I have never bought the idea that it was incompetance or thinking they were creating something unique or ran out of time. I mentioned sabotage on a forum a few times before in the past it might have been here, and it was quickly dismissed as ridiculous.
I never new from who or for why or what reason but this album IMHO is produced with competance and with a purpose for negative gain, but one things for sure to me, the person responsible would know full well what the result of that album would be once the fans heard it.
Every clash album before this one opens with a good number and for this album they choose an out of tune dictator that sounds a mess - someone knew what they were doing. The album name would have to have the word crap in it as well, its almost a taunt.

Now i know nothing about producing music but i know shit production when i hear it and i have full confidence that all of the clash camp know what shit sounds like too.

a hallmark of bipolar disorder would certainly explain a few things.

Being Bipolar myself I understand where you guys are coming from. But I don't buy into the competence angle at all and here's my take. Joe sacked the only guy in my opinion who knew fuck all about production and that was Mick. As far as I know Joe had produced a Little Roosters album and maybe had a hand in the Janie Jones single however those records are a million miles away from what was being attempted by Bernie Rhodes on CtC. Joe most likely heard what a piece of crap Bernie had turned the new Clash songs into and in no way wanted Bernie to succeed so this is where his Bipolar would've kicked in by going along with Bernie's ideas to compete with TIBAD. Now remember when Joe first heard Mick's BAD demos and said it was the biggest pile of crap he'd ever heard? Why would he want his album to sound like that? - The irony being one of the reasons for firing Mick aside from his lateness was because of musical differences over him acquiring a new synthesizer.

Mick didn't know anything about production. They had very, very costly pros in the studio cleaning up his messes and when they didn't - Theatre of Hate, Ellen Foley- it all sounds like the Amateur Hour. Even with Sandinista Bill Price couldn't make it sound like anything but extremely costly 4 track demos featuring Heroin Headon and his Hopalong Hi-Hat Orchestra.

Joe's depressive crash began summer of 84, which is the real reason why everything dragged to a halt. I think all the rest of the stories you hear are just more of the endless avalanche of Clash Lies®, covering for Joe's basic inability to function. There's no way waiting until the winter to record was in the game plan, no matter what was going on with Mick's lawsuits. Everyone in the Clash camp said the plan was to hit the studio as soon as the tour was over. They had more than an album's worth of material in the bag, road-ready to go. The problem was Joe was paralyzed. Running around sobbing under palm trees in Spain is not the hallmark of a punk rock warlord. He was a wreck, absolutely shattered. And there's no way anyone in their right mind thinks Dictator is releaseable.

If Mick could or couldn't produce isn't the point. Mick was the only one paying attention to what was going on production wise and the guy who took an interest. Maybe he had delusions of granduer when it came to being in the chair himself but at least he was watching. I'd put good money on Mick being to able to produce something better than Bernie for fuck sake. Handing over to Bernie was fucking madness beyond madness. He literally took over even changing the album title at the last minute without informing the the group. Give me Mick's version of Rat Patrol over Bernies CtC any day.

No arguments here. But Rat Patrol vs Cut the Crap is a false dichotomy, they're both unlistenable in their own fashion but fail for the same reason. They take a batch of songs that should have been recorded as is and bury them under a layer of garbage. After they've been played with all the energy of pensioner playing shuffleboard.

[IkarisOne]

Self-sabotage is a hallmark of bipolar disorder, which we now know Joe suffered from and maybe Bernie does as well. Joe had peaked out on his manic bender and was getting ready for a long and nasty depressive dive, so he was more than happy to have Bernie do the Hershey squirts all over his record. It gave him a good excuse to go to his room and boo-hoo for a few years. Or good cover, more accurately.

But by any reasonable yardstick, there's only one real difference between Cut the Crap and Combat Rock; one had a professional producer with impeccable credentials, untouchable studio chops and a proven track record of saving botch-jobs come in and rescue the risible pile of unlistenable, enervated nonsense the band had dribbled down their legs and the other had Bernie Rhodes. If Epic were smart and hired a real producer to make sense of the mess Bernie handed them it might have been a totally different story. It might have even gotten Joe out from under the comforter.

Its funny you should say "sabotage" as i thought i was the only one that held this theory. I have never bought the idea that it was incompetance or thinking they were creating something unique or ran out of time. I mentioned sabotage on a forum a few times before in the past it might have been here, and it was quickly dismissed as ridiculous.
I never new from who or for why or what reason but this album IMHO is produced with competance and with a purpose for negative gain, but one things for sure to me, the person responsible would know full well what the result of that album would be once the fans heard it.
Every clash album before this one opens with a good number and for this album they choose an out of tune dictator that sounds a mess - someone knew what they were doing. The album name would have to have the word crap in it as well, its almost a taunt.

Now i know nothing about producing music but i know shit production when i hear it and i have full confidence that all of the clash camp know what shit sounds like too.

a hallmark of bipolar disorder would certainly explain a few things.

Being Bipolar myself I understand where you guys are coming from. But I don't buy into the competence angle at all and here's my take. Joe sacked the only guy in my opinion who knew fuck all about production and that was Mick. As far as I know Joe had produced a Little Roosters album and maybe had a hand in the Janie Jones single however those records are a million miles away from what was being attempted by Bernie Rhodes on CtC. Joe most likely heard what a piece of crap Bernie had turned the new Clash songs into and in no way wanted Bernie to succeed so this is where his Bipolar would've kicked in by going along with Bernie's ideas to compete with TIBAD. Now remember when Joe first heard Mick's BAD demos and said it was the biggest pile of crap he'd ever heard? Why would he want his album to sound like that? - The irony being one of the reasons for firing Mick aside from his lateness was because of musical differences over him acquiring a new synthesizer.

Mick didn't know anything about production. They had very, very costly pros in the studio cleaning up his messes and when they didn't - Theatre of Hate, Ellen Foley- it all sounds like the Amateur Hour. Even with Sandinista Bill Price couldn't make it sound like anything but extremely costly 4 track demos featuring Heroin Headon and his Hopalong Hi-Hat Orchestra.

Joe's depressive crash began summer of 84, which is the real reason why everything dragged to a halt. I think all the rest of the stories you hear are just more of the endless avalanche of Clash Lies®, covering for Joe's basic inability to function. There's no way waiting until the winter to record was in the game plan, no matter what was going on with Mick's lawsuits. Everyone in the Clash camp said the plan was to hit the studio as soon as the tour was over. They had more than an album's worth of material in the bag, road-ready to go. The problem was Joe was paralyzed. Running around sobbing under palm trees in Spain is not the hallmark of a punk rock warlord. He was a wreck, absolutely shattered. And there's no way anyone in their right mind thinks Dictator is releaseable.

Achieving a great production isnt really my problem with this album but more that the production was designed with the purpose to ruin great songs.
They could have got the band to play and capture the songs live in the studio. This wouldnt need a great producer and it would have been quick, cheap and would have been consistent with there back to basics campaign.
The first three stranglers albums were done in this way and i think they are the most exciting albums and sound the best. The record company did this for a fast and cheap release and to maximise profits and it was well recieved as fans wanted the live sound of the band - 3 albums were released with only 6 months apart from each other.

Well, here's where you can defend Joe. His original concept was to record the songs as is in a cheap studio. But Bernie decided to make Duck Rock II and it was downhill from there.

[Marky Dread]

Its funny you should say "sabotage" as i thought i was the only one that held this theory. I have never bought the idea that it was incompetance or thinking they were creating something unique or ran out of time. I mentioned sabotage on a forum a few times before in the past it might have been here, and it was quickly dismissed as ridiculous.
I never new from who or for why or what reason but this album IMHO is produced with competance and with a purpose for negative gain, but one things for sure to me, the person responsible would know full well what the result of that album would be once the fans heard it.
Every clash album before this one opens with a good number and for this album they choose an out of tune dictator that sounds a mess - someone knew what they were doing. The album name would have to have the word crap in it as well, its almost a taunt.

Now i know nothing about producing music but i know shit production when i hear it and i have full confidence that all of the clash camp know what shit sounds like too.

a hallmark of bipolar disorder would certainly explain a few things.

Being Bipolar myself I understand where you guys are coming from. But I don't buy into the competence angle at all and here's my take. Joe sacked the only guy in my opinion who knew fuck all about production and that was Mick. As far as I know Joe had produced a Little Roosters album and maybe had a hand in the Janie Jones single however those records are a million miles away from what was being attempted by Bernie Rhodes on CtC. Joe most likely heard what a piece of crap Bernie had turned the new Clash songs into and in no way wanted Bernie to succeed so this is where his Bipolar would've kicked in by going along with Bernie's ideas to compete with TIBAD. Now remember when Joe first heard Mick's BAD demos and said it was the biggest pile of crap he'd ever heard? Why would he want his album to sound like that? - The irony being one of the reasons for firing Mick aside from his lateness was because of musical differences over him acquiring a new synthesizer.

Mick didn't know anything about production. They had very, very costly pros in the studio cleaning up his messes and when they didn't - Theatre of Hate, Ellen Foley- it all sounds like the Amateur Hour. Even with Sandinista Bill Price couldn't make it sound like anything but extremely costly 4 track demos featuring Heroin Headon and his Hopalong Hi-Hat Orchestra.

Joe's depressive crash began summer of 84, which is the real reason why everything dragged to a halt. I think all the rest of the stories you hear are just more of the endless avalanche of Clash Lies®, covering for Joe's basic inability to function. There's no way waiting until the winter to record was in the game plan, no matter what was going on with Mick's lawsuits. Everyone in the Clash camp said the plan was to hit the studio as soon as the tour was over. They had more than an album's worth of material in the bag, road-ready to go. The problem was Joe was paralyzed. Running around sobbing under palm trees in Spain is not the hallmark of a punk rock warlord. He was a wreck, absolutely shattered. And there's no way anyone in their right mind thinks Dictator is releaseable.

Achieving a great production isnt really my problem with this album but more that the production was designed with the purpose to ruin great songs.
They could have got the band to play and capture the songs live in the studio. This wouldnt need a great producer and it would have been quick, cheap and would have been consistent with there back to basics campaign.
The first three stranglers albums were done in this way and i think they are the most exciting albums and sound the best. The record company did this for a fast and cheap release and to maximise profits and it was well recieved as fans wanted the live sound of the band - 3 albums were released with only 6 months apart from each other.

Well, here's where you can defend Joe. His original concept was to record the songs as is in a cheap studio. But Bernie decided to make Duck Rock II and it was downhill from there.

Brilliant.

[Marky Dread]

Its funny you should say "sabotage" as i thought i was the only one that held this theory. I have never bought the idea that it was incompetance or thinking they were creating something unique or ran out of time. I mentioned sabotage on a forum a few times before in the past it might have been here, and it was quickly dismissed as ridiculous.
I never new from who or for why or what reason but this album IMHO is produced with competance and with a purpose for negative gain, but one things for sure to me, the person responsible would know full well what the result of that album would be once the fans heard it.
Every clash album before this one opens with a good number and for this album they choose an out of tune dictator that sounds a mess - someone knew what they were doing. The album name would have to have the word crap in it as well, its almost a taunt.

Now i know nothing about producing music but i know shit production when i hear it and i have full confidence that all of the clash camp know what shit sounds like too.

a hallmark of bipolar disorder would certainly explain a few things.

Being Bipolar myself I understand where you guys are coming from. But I don't buy into the competence angle at all and here's my take. Joe sacked the only guy in my opinion who knew fuck all about production and that was Mick. As far as I know Joe had produced a Little Roosters album and maybe had a hand in the Janie Jones single however those records are a million miles away from what was being attempted by Bernie Rhodes on CtC. Joe most likely heard what a piece of crap Bernie had turned the new Clash songs into and in no way wanted Bernie to succeed so this is where his Bipolar would've kicked in by going along with Bernie's ideas to compete with TIBAD. Now remember when Joe first heard Mick's BAD demos and said it was the biggest pile of crap he'd ever heard? Why would he want his album to sound like that? - The irony being one of the reasons for firing Mick aside from his lateness was because of musical differences over him acquiring a new synthesizer.

Mick didn't know anything about production. They had very, very costly pros in the studio cleaning up his messes and when they didn't - Theatre of Hate, Ellen Foley- it all sounds like the Amateur Hour. Even with Sandinista Bill Price couldn't make it sound like anything but extremely costly 4 track demos featuring Heroin Headon and his Hopalong Hi-Hat Orchestra.

Joe's depressive crash began summer of 84, which is the real reason why everything dragged to a halt. I think all the rest of the stories you hear are just more of the endless avalanche of Clash Lies®, covering for Joe's basic inability to function. There's no way waiting until the winter to record was in the game plan, no matter what was going on with Mick's lawsuits. Everyone in the Clash camp said the plan was to hit the studio as soon as the tour was over. They had more than an album's worth of material in the bag, road-ready to go. The problem was Joe was paralyzed. Running around sobbing under palm trees in Spain is not the hallmark of a punk rock warlord. He was a wreck, absolutely shattered. And there's no way anyone in their right mind thinks Dictator is releaseable.

If Mick could or couldn't produce isn't the point. Mick was the only one paying attention to what was going on production wise and the guy who took an interest. Maybe he had delusions of granduer when it came to being in the chair himself but at least he was watching. I'd put good money on Mick being to able to produce something better than Bernie for fuck sake. Handing over to Bernie was fucking madness beyond madness. He literally took over even changing the album title at the last minute without informing the the group. Give me Mick's version of Rat Patrol over Bernies CtC any day.

No arguments here. But Rat Patrol vs Cut the Crap is a false dichotomy, they're both unlistenable in their own fashion but fail for the same reason. They take a batch of songs that should have been recorded as is and bury them under a layer of garbage. After they've been played with all the energy of pensioner playing shuffleboard.

Oh yeah they both suffer the same. The only defence I offer for Rat Patrol is at least it was salvageable.

[Low Down Low]

I quite like Rat Patrol. It's fun to listen to and I'd be more in line with Mick's ideas on how the band should have moved forward at that point than Joe's, even allowing for Mick's unacceptably over indulgent production. Could never get why Kill Time was jettisoned for the remix. A tighter edit and you'd have a terrific album track, streets ahead of dross like Atom Tan and Red Angel Dragnet (guess Paul had to be on the record in some guise or other though)

Don't really buy the self-sabotage angle on CtC. It's unfair on Joe and I don't believe the facts are there to support it. Whether it was saveable or not, things worked out the way they should. CtC is precisely the record it deserved and needed to be given the circumstances.

[Heston]

I don't really think anyone can truly judge Rat Patrol until the day we see a full fidelity mix of Mick's intended album. All we have to judge is a very murky version that maybe wasn't Mick's final mix.

[Dr. Medulla]

I don't really think anyone can truly judge Rat Patrol until the day we see a full fidelity mix of Mick's intended album. All we have to judge is a very murky version that maybe wasn't Mick's final mix.

Get Mick's cock out of your mouth. Everyone knows he's evil and destroys hope.