Scottish independence?

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Flex
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Re: Scottish independence?

Post by Flex » 11 Sep 2014, 12:55pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:Okay, that helps me understand how you're describing a free market. That's much, much different than how free market is normally conceived of—i.e., the laissez faire capitalist sense. It's fine to redefine it that way, but it strikes me as a potential challenge to conversing with those not already familiar with the terms. Not only does it ask a person to question human relationships, but also to completely overhaul the meaning of free. But that's more a question of proselytization, I suppose.

edit: Proselytize may be the wrong word here, as it normally carries a negative connotation. Which wasn't my intent. I meant more in a teaching/persuading by argument kind of way and the challenges inherent in redefining words so significantly.
Yeah, I'm sort of ambivalent about whether to use the term "free market." I enjoy the turn of phrase that "free market anti-capitalist" creates, but it obviously leads to confusion. The defenders of the term point out that the result is often exactly what you describe and what happened here, it forces us to reconsider fundamental assumptions (your point) and it tends to lead to more conversation than a readily understood label (which is what we've been doing). I think it's worth considering that the goal of mutualists (and most flavors of anarchist) is specifically to get people to question human relationships and reconsider how they define terms like "free." So creating a discourse that challenges those assumptions may further that goal.

Or maybe it doesn't. I dunno. I think there's also merit to the idea that creating a confusing discourse can lead to alienation from those not conversant in it if you aren't very, very careful about helping bring folks along. I'm just summarizing what I recall of defenses of the term from others when challenged on the word usage and whether it helps or hurts. As I said, ultimately I'm fairly ambivalent on this one.
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Re: Scottish independence?

Post by Dr. Medulla » 11 Sep 2014, 1:25pm

Flex wrote:Yeah, I'm sort of ambivalent about whether to use the term "free market." I enjoy the turn of phrase that "free market anti-capitalist" creates, but it obviously leads to confusion. The defenders of the term point out that the result is often exactly what you describe and what happened here, it forces us to reconsider fundamental assumptions (your point) and it tends to lead to more conversation than a readily understood label (which is what we've been doing). I think it's worth considering that the goal of mutualists (and most flavors of anarchist) is specifically to get people to question human relationships and reconsider how they define terms like "free." So creating a discourse that challenges those assumptions may further that goal.

Or maybe it doesn't. I dunno. I think there's also merit to the idea that creating a confusing discourse can lead to alienation from those not conversant in it if you aren't very, very careful about helping bring folks along. I'm just summarizing what I recall of defenses of the term from others when challenged on the word usage and whether it helps or hurts. As I said, ultimately I'm fairly ambivalent on this one.
I appreciate the kind of constructive confusion that can occur with the reconfiguration of "free market"—the potential for those light bulb moments—but I usually fall on the side that the function of language is to minimize confusion in communication. If a discussion requires all kinds of preliminaries to make sure everyone is on the page—worse, that it requires an initial rethink even in the prelims—I wonder whether it's time to look for a new and exclusive term. Just as an example with teaching, it's bad enough talking contemporary politics when the words liberal and conservative get employed, but when historical events also get injected and use those terms, it's a damned nightmare. Explaining that nineteenth-century liberal means something distinct from post-war liberal, which means something distinct from post-Vietnam liberal. And that's just liberal as a noun. (I'm more than a little dreading my lectures on those kinds of questions.) The mutualist use of free market as a teaching tactic strikes me as an all-or-nothing gambit. If it works, a lot of other reconfigured definitions fall into place and you can really move things forward; if it doesn't, the conversation is shanked. My guy goes against that approach, but I see its potential.
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Re: Scottish independence?

Post by 101Walterton » 11 Sep 2014, 3:41pm

The early votes are in:


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Re: Scottish independence?

Post by Heston » 12 Sep 2014, 8:58pm

Our hypothetical new flag with Scottish colours removed and Wales' added, I like it...

Image
So what does Marconi playing the mamba mean? "Marconi" is referring to the radio itself. It plays a deadly snake. The snake - the mamba - is slithering from the speakers. Ready to kill greedy corporations. Ready to free the world of all that is evil, and to leave behind only the youthful idealism encompassed by the tenets of rock and roll.

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Re: Scottish independence?

Post by biopunk » 12 Sep 2014, 9:31pm

Heston wrote:Our hypothetical new flag with Scottish colours removed and Wales' added, I like it...

Image
Needs a muckle great dragon on it, if yer having onnae appeal to yon youth.
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Re: Scottish independence?

Post by 101Walterton » 13 Sep 2014, 4:20pm

Heston wrote:Our hypothetical new flag with Scottish colours removed and Wales' added, I like it...

Image
Get rid of the St Andrews cross.

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Re: Scottish independence?

Post by JennyB » 14 Sep 2014, 9:36pm

I think the Scottish flag should have haggis on it. Haggis and Ewan McGregor.
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Re: Scottish independence?

Post by biopunk » 14 Sep 2014, 10:08pm

Image
JennyB wrote:I think the Scottish flag should have haggis on it. Haggis and Ewan McGregor.
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Re: Scottish independence?

Post by JennyB » 16 Sep 2014, 1:00am

biopunk wrote:Image
JennyB wrote:I think the Scottish flag should have haggis on it. Haggis and Ewan McGregor.
I'd prefer maybe Trainspotting era Ewan, but that'll do, I suppose. :mrgreen:
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Re: Scottish independence?

Post by JoseUnidos » 16 Sep 2014, 10:31am

biopunk wrote:Image
JennyB wrote:I think the Scottish flag should have haggis on it. Haggis and Ewan McGregor.
This is the best thing ever.

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Re: Scottish independence?

Post by Wolter » 16 Sep 2014, 11:04am

JoseUnidos wrote:
biopunk wrote:Image
JennyB wrote:I think the Scottish flag should have haggis on it. Haggis and Ewan McGregor.
This is the best thing ever.
Needs more Strummercorns.
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Re: Scottish independence?

Post by Dr. Medulla » 16 Sep 2014, 11:47am

Wolter wrote:
JoseUnidos wrote:
biopunk wrote:Image
JennyB wrote:I think the Scottish flag should have haggis on it. Haggis and Ewan McGregor.
This is the best thing ever.
Needs more Strummercorns.
They cannae afford my reproduction right fees.
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Re: Scottish independence?

Post by Spiff » 16 Sep 2014, 1:37pm

Heston wrote:Our hypothetical new flag with Scottish colours removed and Wales' added, I like it...

Image
Pshaw ... Don't you know that Wales is next jumping off your sinking ship? :mrgreen:
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Re: Scottish independence?

Post by Wolter » 16 Sep 2014, 3:18pm

Spiff wrote:
Heston wrote:Our hypothetical new flag with Scottish colours removed and Wales' added, I like it...

Image
Pshaw ... Don't you know that Wales is next jumping off your sinking ship? :mrgreen:
Soon enough it will just be Ulster and England sitting in a tree...
"There's something more honest, he believed, about traditional methods of mass starvation, labour camps, and machine gunning millions to death. Stalin was a vinyl guy who sneered at Truman converting everything to compact disc." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Scottish independence?

Post by 101Walterton » 16 Sep 2014, 3:21pm

Wolter wrote:
Spiff wrote:
Heston wrote:Our hypothetical new flag with Scottish colours removed and Wales' added, I like it...

Image
Pshaw ... Don't you know that Wales is next jumping off your sinking ship? :mrgreen:
Soon enough it will just be Ulster and England sitting in a tree...
Yes they will never get rid of Ulster unfortunately.

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