Scottish independence?

[biopunk]

Thanks Bio, I appreciate your considered response. As I said, I was asking about this on another music related board with some smart peeps (plenty of Brits/Irishers/Euros), and one comment I heard a lot was that many of the pro-Indy peeps up north tended to be real...well, dummies. Lots of playing on emotion and national/cultural identity and that, at the expense of serious consideration/discussion of the long term ramifications of independence. Like I said, I've no firm opinion yet, but cheers for giving me some insight mate.

Yeah, they do seem to be terribly naive with the politics and economics. I had an argument earlier about how reckless it is for the Yes side to believe that it will be Scotland, and not the EU, who will be choosing whether the Scots stay inside the EU after 2016...

The Scots still have to reapply and then the EU votes on that application after further negotiations. It's not automatic.

Anyhow, that's my take.

[wmhp]

Seemingly I'm not allowed to chip in on this as I've had an email from my employer 'Fife Council' stating that since there is less than a month to go before the vote I cannot express my views in public.
Disciplinary action will be taken.

So.. on a completely different note.
I am very much aware that a majority of my country leans to the left of centre and would like the opportunity of voting for a fairer, more just, socialist society based on equality for all - not just the square mile of London city financiers that currently rules over them. As naive as you might think that is, you have to applaud the sentiment.
There's not enough votes in Scotland to change the current financial policy of closing down public services and hammering the poor, with nearly 900,000 of us living in poverty, who thinks we should suck it up and vote for the status quo? ( I do like.. get down deeper and down na na na.. though)

I don't care about which currency we use, I don't care what happens with the EU membership, I don't care if the queen will need a passport or any of the other bollocks the media distracts us with.
I do care that the tax raised in this country and our share of the national reserves are spent on giving our people the helping hand they need when business put them on the dole or landlords buying council houses price tenants onto the streets OR HYDROELECTRIC! put their prices up because of some made up cartel corporate bullshit that makes mothers choose between a fiver in the meter/ feeding their kids that week or public transport prices mean 30% of your wages goes on getting to your place of employment..there's hundreds of real issues. While I wish I had the opportunity of looking at this from the outside, I'm here living this.
I do understand how the business world works and I do see the splitting of power being another tool they can use to squeeze concessions and tax breaks from us to increase already obscene profits, I also feel for the Geordie's and other labour voters who would be consigned to permanent Tory rule in England, but this is an opportunity that Scotland should grasp with both hands.

Sorry, that seems like I'm giving a view on the forthcoming ballot. I'm not. I'm just saying stuff. These are the views of a guy with no opinion and is still undecided.

[eumaas]

I wouldn't mind it.

[Dr. Medulla]

I've never had all that much interest in the American Civil War, but the one thing that's always impressed me about the secession debates in 1860–61 is that Southerners did not go into it thinking it would solve all kinds of problems. There was, for the most part, a sense that life was going to be really hard for a long time but that it was something they had to do. Despite the abhorrent reason for seceding, I nevertheless admire that absence of naive optimism. I compare that to the French nationalists in Canada, who treat separation as something romantic, so wonderful, that all the old problems will disappear overnight with independence. As a neighbour here observed, if Quebec ever did separate, there'd be a civil war there within a year once reality set in, and they'd look for someone new to blame for the lack of unicorns. Any pro-separatist movement that doesn't face up to the fact that it'll be a hard fucking slog doesn't merit respect.

[muppet hi fi]

I've never had all that much interest in the American Civil War, but the one thing that's always impressed me about the secession debates in 1860–61 is that Southerners did not go into it thinking it would solve all kinds of problems. There was, for the most part, a sense that life was going to be really hard for a long time but that it was something they had to do. Despite the abhorrent reason for seceding, I nevertheless admire that absence of naive optimism. I compare that to the French nationalists in Canada, who treat separation as something romantic, so wonderful, that all the old problems will disappear overnight with independence. As a neighbour here observed, if Quebec ever did separate, there'd be a civil war there within a year once reality set in, and they'd look for someone new to blame for the lack of unicorns. Any pro-separatist movement that doesn't face up to the fact that it'll be a hard fucking slog doesn't merit respect.

Good post, good points, good food for thought. Thank you, Doc.

[eumaas]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... nout-polls

[Dr. Medulla]

At the Sub Club, a world-famous nightspot in Glasgow, the debate was remarkably coherent, even at 2am among the intoxicated smokers huddled outside. If I could distil the vox pops among those under-30s to a single thought it would be: "We want to run our own country."

They have heard all the dire macro-economic warnings – about the pound, the banks, the debt, the non-reliability of oil money. Set against the idea of making a clean break with Westminster politics and neoliberal economics, these are risks many of them are prepared to take.

Heh, this has echoes of Quebec's nationalist. It was (and I use the past tense deliberately, as it's less and less a viable possibility) driven by Boomers. As the grim reaper claims more Boomers, the likelihood of another referendum (let alone a yes victory) dwindles. There have been other aspects that have killed nationalism, namely that the separatists have successfully transformed politics in the province that all parties embrace nationalism (just not all see the need for independence) to such a degree that franco culture is quite strong and protected within a Quebec in the federal system. In other words, to anyone under 35, what's to be gained?

So it's intriguing that the Scottish yes side is resonating mostly with Millennials (if the generational term works over there). That does suggest that the nationalism question, if this vote fails, will be around for decades to come.

[Silent Majority]

I think if even Croydon could break from Westminster, it'd be glad to.

[rudebhoy]

Good thing for Scotland as it will free us from Tory rule. Bad thing for England as it will condemn them to Tory rule for a helluva long time - at the last election, Labour won 41 of 59 seats. The Tories won 1! The same thing happened in 2005. If anything, the gap would be even wider in 2015 - the Lib Dems won 11 of the 59, however they are now pretty much discredited / distrusted after cosying up with the Tories. Without those 40+ seats, it will be very difficult for Labour to win another election south of the border. I reckon a lot of Tories will be glad to see the back of Scotland for the above reasons.

A NO win looked pretty certain even a month ago, but all bets are off now following the latest polls - the momentum is definitely with YES.

[Dr. Medulla]

Yes, Scots, when making your decision, take a moment to think about how this will affect David Cameron's emotional well-being. What a fucking cretin.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/scotland-i ... -1.2761589

[Rat Patrol]

Prediction: He--and the Tories--want them to go because losing the most left-leaning part of Britain ensures a Tory majority for years to come and sends Labour triangulating itself to the right into irrelevance. Because they studied the fake-out tactics that have driven American politics rightward and neutered the Democrats. This is ineptitude with a purpose.


Reality: He did not think that cunning plan through when it came to who controls North Sea oil reserves at a time when Western Europe is spooked shitless of Vlad Putin's energy exports, and shit's going to get all gridlocked when he ineptly tries to stall over control of those reserves. That is ineptitude without a purpose.


Like I always say, in a contest between stupid and evil...ALWAYS bet on stupid.

[Silent Majority]

I know that my seeing their three fucking stupid, similar faces together and hearing Cameron talk made them want me to lose whatever they wanted.

edit;spelling.

[Dr. Medulla]

I know that my seeing their three fucking stupid, similar faces together and hearing Cameron talk made me want me to lose whatever they wanted.

I'm ignorant enough that I can't speak to the practical implications of a yes win, but when Harper joined the chorus for the no side, my gut instinct went to yes. When a collection of assholes stand united on one side, every sensible instinct should tell you to seriously consider the other side.

[Silent Majority]

I am broadly pro-yes campaign, while happy to admit being ignorant about economic minutiae. And as you say, everyone suddenly pleading condescendingly with the Scots have been the less tolerable of public figures.

[biopunk]

Prediction: He--and the Tories--want them to go because losing the most left-leaning part of Britain ensures a Tory majority for years to come and sends Labour triangulating itself to the right into irrelevance. Because they studied the fake-out tactics that have driven American politics rightward and neutered the Democrats. This is ineptitude with a purpose.


Reality: He did not think that cunning plan through when it came to who controls North Sea oil reserves at a time when Western Europe is spooked shitless of Vlad Putin's energy exports, and shit's going to get all gridlocked when he ineptly tries to stall over control of those reserves. That is ineptitude without a purpose.


Like I always say, in a contest between stupid and evil...ALWAYS bet on stupid.

Now, now, the Scots are ignorant, not stupid.

Scotland's gas production is virtual nil. The gas fields in the southern North Sea (England) are where it's at.

Also, there are no Scottish oil & gas extraction companies, the offshore is all Canadian, British, Dutch, and French owned.

It would be Scotland that ineptly tries to stall over control of those reserves.