If Music Could Talk

Good thing? Bad thing? Neither here nor there thing?

muppet hi fi wrote:Good thing? Bad thing? Neither here nor there thing?

Good thing? Maybe if it had happened 25 years ago. :(

Bad thing? Absolutely. Scotland exports people for a reason.

Neither here nor there thing? Dinnae talk daft! <clutches saltire to breast and spouts off lines from Hollywood films>

Bio - could you please elaborate a bit please? I posed this question on another music board and a nice guy from Philly started in on Northern Ireland. My point was maybe this sort of nationalism is out dated and potentially dangerous and not in the interests of average peeps. Palestine and Israel came up, naturally...
Anyway, are you an expat Jock? You seem to know your shit. I'd sincerely like to hear others' views on this, cause I really don't have a well formed opinion. I guess I think it's a bad idea in the 21st century...

Not until we get those bootlegs.

muppet hi fi wrote:Bio - could you please elaborate a bit please? I posed this question on another music board and a nice guy from Philly started in on Northern Ireland. My point was maybe this sort of nationalism is out dated and potentially dangerous and not in the interests of average peeps. Palestine and Israel came up, naturally...
Anyway, are you an expat Jock? You seem to know your shit. I'd sincerely like to hear others' views on this, cause I really don't have a well formed opinion. I guess I think it's a bad idea in the 21st century...

Sure, Muppet! I'm a first generation Canadian of Caithness & Glaswegian parentage who met at Edinburgh university and emigrated shortly after. Most of my Scottish-born cousins are now working and living in England. My recently on-the-fence, ex-army, uncle who lives in Inverness, is now pro-indy, but he's retired and has no kids, unlike the rest of my tribe...

I think off-shore oil development was where it was at for economic independence in the 80's, and would have filled any coffers an independent Scotland would have had at the time. They don't have much of that any more, neither do they have the money to pay for the ageing infrastructure of the power-plants in an independent Scotland. How they expect to attract industry without solid infrastructure is beyond me. I just don't see that as sustaining a gross national product. I also expect they'll need to make huge tax concessions to corporations as was done in Ireland, and then compete with Ireland. Difference is, no one will be bailing them out in 10 years, like Ireland was. Add an ageing population to support, and kiss any pretence of social stability away.

I've been thinking about the Protestant/Catholic thing lately ('Tis the season... :( ), and yeah, I can see that going off again, as there are still distinct Cath/Prod areas in the cities that will be competing for these imagined jobs that independence will magically allow for, and I don't see that history not repeating itself. The usual have/have-nots, city/rural, lowland/teuchter divides will still be there.

I probably feel the same way about the nationalism. I find the pro-side have some of the most ignorant, rah-rah, pie-in-the-sky arguments because they like to pretend they are somehow different than everybody else, and deserve better because they were born above some imaginary line. Kind of like the Québécois seperatistes here in Canada.

Heston wrote:Not until we get those bootlegs.

:D

The "sheep are ⅗ human" clause in the proposed constitution will tear the country apart.

For selfish reasons, like ease of holidaying, and potentially spending my entire forties stumbling around Govan, I'd like Scotland to stay in the United Kingdom. If the majority of the people who live there want self-determination, then I applaud any further dismantling of the moribund British empire.

Secession is wrong unless the gummint is taking your slaves.

Edmund Ruffin wrote:Secession is wrong unless the gummint is taking your slaves.

Dr. Medulla wrote:

Edmund Ruffin wrote:Secession is wrong unless the gummint is taking your slaves.

You have to admit, he was one handsome fanatical racist.

Wolter wrote:

Dr. Medulla wrote:

Edmund Ruffin wrote:Secession is wrong unless the gummint is taking your slaves.

You have to admit, he was one handsome fanatical racist.

He looks like that suave grey haired business guy who always turned out to be the murderer in the TV movie of the week. You know the one I mean. I feel like his name was George or something.

edit: George Hamilton!

Wolter wrote:

Dr. Medulla wrote:

Edmund Ruffin wrote:Secession is wrong unless the gummint is taking your slaves.

You have to admit, he was one handsome fanatical racist.

Plus he had the commitment to blow his head off rather than accept the defeat of Southern independence (better yet, he fucked up the first time and immediately reloaded and got it right the second). Unlike pussies like Jeff Davis, who advocated reconciliation after the war.

edit: My recollection is that Eric Walther's book The Fire-Eaters is quite a decent account of the full and proper nuts of the pre-Confederacy.

And there's even a scanned copy available: http://bookfi.org/dl/1312642/f15083

Dr. Medulla wrote:

Wolter wrote:

Dr. Medulla wrote:

Edmund Ruffin wrote:Secession is wrong unless the gummint is taking your slaves.

You have to admit, he was one handsome fanatical racist.

Plus he had the commitment to blow his head off rather than accept the defeat of Southern independence (better yet, he fucked up the first time and immediately reloaded and got it right the second). Unlike pussies like Jeff Davis, who advocated reconciliation after the war.

edit: My recollection is that Eric Walther's book The Fire-Eaters is quite a decent account of the full and proper nuts of the pre-Confederacy.

And there's even a scanned copy available: http://bookfi.org/dl/1312642/f15083

Sweeeeeeet.

biopunk wrote:

muppet hi fi wrote:Bio - could you please elaborate a bit please? I posed this question on another music board and a nice guy from Philly started in on Northern Ireland. My point was maybe this sort of nationalism is out dated and potentially dangerous and not in the interests of average peeps. Palestine and Israel came up, naturally...
Anyway, are you an expat Jock? You seem to know your shit. I'd sincerely like to hear others' views on this, cause I really don't have a well formed opinion. I guess I think it's a bad idea in the 21st century...

Sure, Muppet! I'm a first generation Canadian of Caithness & Glaswegian parentage who met at Edinburgh university and emigrated shortly after. Most of my Scottish-born cousins are now working and living in England. My recently on-the-fence, ex-army, uncle who lives in Inverness, is now pro-indy, but he's retired and has no kids, unlike the rest of my tribe...

I think off-shore oil development was where it was at for economic independence in the 80's, and would have filled any coffers an independent Scotland would have had at the time. They don't have much of that any more, neither do they have the money to pay for the ageing infrastructure of the power-plants in an independent Scotland. How they expect to attract industry without solid infrastructure is beyond me. I just don't see that as sustaining a gross national product. I also expect they'll need to make huge tax concessions to corporations as was done in Ireland, and then compete with Ireland. Difference is, no one will be bailing them out in 10 years, like Ireland was. Add an ageing population to support, and kiss any pretence of social stability away.

I've been thinking about the Protestant/Catholic thing lately ('Tis the season... :( ), and yeah, I can see that going off again, as there are still distinct Cath/Prod areas in the cities that will be competing for these imagined jobs that independence will magically allow for, and I don't see that history not repeating itself. The usual have/have-nots, city/rural, lowland/teuchter divides will still be there.

I probably feel the same way about the nationalism. I find the pro-side have some of the most ignorant, rah-rah, pie-in-the-sky arguments because they like to pretend they are somehow different than everybody else, and deserve better because they were born above some imaginary line. Kind of like the Québécois seperatistes here in Canada.

Thanks Bio, I appreciate your considered response. As I said, I was asking about this on another music related board with some smart peeps (plenty of Brits/Irishers/Euros), and one comment I heard a lot was that many of the pro-Indy peeps up north tended to be real...well, dummies. Lots of playing on emotion and national/cultural identity and that, at the expense of serious consideration/discussion of the long term ramifications of independence. Like I said, I've no firm opinion yet, but cheers for giving me some insight mate.