9-11

[eumaas]

Since Steve is on my foe list, I'm just sort of assuming Inder is going completely insane and "calling himself out" as the kids might say.

A steady diet of Hotwich FC will do that to a man.

[eumaas]

For the record I'm against both Islamic terror and American imperialism. Neither is a legitimate use of violence.

[Red star 69]

Fanatisism is a dangerous thing whatever religion or political view it´s attached to. Please be careful satch because saying things like -I learned all I need to know about something through one single event and quoting miles of statistics make it look like you´re heading in that direction.
If I said I learned all I need to know about Jews the day Israel turned off the water supply to Gaza and started bombing schools in Palestine I´d be called (quite rightly) a Nazi!

This isn´t directed at anyone here in particular (most Clash fans are pretty worldly in my expierience) but, I find it quite alarming how many Americans are so poorly educated on things going on outside the US. I recently expierienced some nasty racist remarks on a Trans-Atlantic flight from a group of US UNIVERSITY students directed at a man wearing a turban... All the usual stuff about fucking terrorist and so on. As I informed the group that the man wasn´t a muslim but acctauly a Sikh they called me a sleeper and stuff, allthough that stopped when I offered to push one guys nose through the back of his head.

The point is: the more we know about fanatics, the better we can deal with them.

[Dr. Medulla]

For the record I'm against both Islamic terror and American imperialism. Neither is a legitimate use of violence.

And we have a winner! Apart from a willful ignorance about Islam—not all Muslims are the same, not all are fundamentalist, etc—the whole "war on terrorism" from the American perspective makes it sound as America was just minding its own business, maybe doing good deeds around the globe, and then got blindsided for no reason other than the attackers were lunatics. As if American foreign, trade, and energy policy hasn't destabilized and interfered with peoples throughout the world since World War II (it does, of course, go back farther than that, back to European colonization, but the American role is chiefly after 1945). How about the CIA overthrow of Mossadeq in '53, which was the first huge domino that led to the Iranian Revolution in '79? Or the tight but tense relationship with Saudi sheiks, eventually leading to the stationing of US troops in Saudi Arabia? Or luring the Soviets into Afghanistan, then funding and training some bat shit Sunnis (including a young zealot named bin Laden) to bog them down? Or arming a secular dictator in Iraq to encourage war with Iran, then turn around and smack the fuck out of him for stepping over the line? Or uncritically supporting Israel in any and all regional conflicts, often exasperating tensions? To name a few. None of this minimizes the devastation that occurred that day seven years, but to place it all on "radical Islam" without considering the larger narrative ensures more of the same. More black hats being worn in all this than white.

[Spiff]

O.K., here are some numbers:

Over 500,000 Iraqi civilains, repeat: civilians, have died as a result of the U.S. invasion in 2003.

This is is more than 150 times the number of U.S. civilains killed on 9/11. Not double the amount, not triple ... but one hundred and fucking fifty times as many dead civilians in Iraq.

If we had not violently ousted Saddam, would he have killed more than 100,000 of his subjects each year in the preceeding five years? Yes, Saddam was a sick fucknut, but he never, ever came even close to that large of a body count.

A 2007 survey of Iraqi families found that about 20% had one or more family members killed as a result of the war. Not all these dead folks had an American bullet in them, or a piece of American shrapnel, of course. In fact, most of them probably died in the civil war that our invasion triggered. But the point is, they died only after we "liberated" their country, and while we were running the show there.

I can guarantee you that 90% or more of these families feel that the U.S. is responsible for the death of their family member(s).

As a result, they now hate the U.S., and here's the kicker: They are therefore more and more sypathetic to the siren call of radical islam. This war in Iraq is an Al-Qaida recruiter's wet dream! That's why this war is a total failure, regardless of how we were able to whack a bad man who violated most if not all clauses of his surrender agreement in 1990.

Steve, radical Islam sucks, every rational person knows that. But you fail to see the larger picture, which is that the "solution" to radical Islam pursued by the Bush Administration has been itself a form of radical terrorism.

You may object to ... no, I'm sure you will object to ... my use of the words terrorism to describe our actions in Iraq.

But the word fits.

[Marky Dread]

I know fuck all about politics and don't care much to debate it. All I do know is that it was innocent people who lost their lives once again caught up in the madness of some terrorist ideal. I think it's right and proper for the Amaerican public to honour their dead and show their respects. There can be no winners here and no one is without blame on both sides.

[Red star 69]

I know fuck all about politics and don't care much to debate it. All I do know is that it was innocent people who lost their lives once again caught up in the madness of some terrorist ideal. I think it's right and proper for the Amaerican public to honour their dead and show their respects. There can be no winners here and no one is without blame on both sides.

Last word to Marky.. CLOSE THE THREAD!

[dpwolf]

Just thought I'd mention fundamentalist Christians, the most evil mo-fo's out there, historically speaking.

[eumaas]

Just thought I'd mention fundamentalist Christians, the most evil mo-fo's out there, historically speaking.

Communists and fascists/Nazis are worse.

[IkarisOne]

Religious extremism is horrific in all its forms. It is inhumane, regressive and oppressive. All that being said, I think radical Islam is just an unwitting tool in the new "Great Game of Nations." Just as is Christian fundamentalism. And the people pulling the strings don't subscribe to these beliefs at all themselves. Of that I have no doubts at all.

[dpwolf]

Just thought I'd mention fundamentalist Christians, the most evil mo-fo's out there, historically speaking.

Communists and fascists/Nazis are worse.

Apparently one can be both a fascist/Nazi and fundamentalist Christian these days.

[eumaas]

Just thought I'd mention fundamentalist Christians, the most evil mo-fo's out there, historically speaking.

Communists and fascists/Nazis are worse.

Apparently one can be both a fascist/Nazi and fundamentalist Christian these days.

If you mean Christian Identity, I guess yeah. But the Bushites are not fascist.

[IkarisOne]

You know, it just occurred to me that extremist ideologies are the direct result of overpopulation and resource depletion- or the subconscious fear of the same. The Islamic world has been dealing with both of this for the pat 30 years at least.

[eumaas]

You know, it just occurred to me that extremist ideologies are the direct result of overpopulation and resource depletion- or the subconscious fear of the same. The Islamic world has been dealing with both of this for the pat 30 years at least.

Tribal identities are definitely more pronounced during scarcity. That said, even without scarcity tribal identity exists, but is perhaps more superficial--punks, mods etc.

[Red star 69]

You know, it just occurred to me that extremist ideologies are the direct result of overpopulation and resource depletion- or the subconscious fear of the same. The Islamic world has been dealing with both of this for the pat 30 years at least.

In the 13th century there was no overpopulation and catholic fanatics still went to the middle east and slaughtered muslims in the name of God!
I don´t really think that all this chaos is what Jesus & Mohammed (both historical figures) had in mind.