What the Democrats Never Seem to Learn

[IkarisOne]

It's yet another reason why our traditional "spectrumed" sense of politics is so meaningless. Far too many dimensions to consider when figuring out one's politics, but the degree of contempt one feels for basic human nature is certainly a valid one. I'm still convinced of the basic decency of human nature, of our higher brain functions, but we're still too prone to defaulting to that reptilian part of our brain, and those of an authoritarian bent succeed by pushing those buttons.

That's about where I'm at. I think most people are decent but capable of deep irrationality if made to feel threatened.

Which takes us full circle to the fact that almost every U.S. election (and probably most other ones) of the last 25-30 years has been won on the idea of keeping outside enemies from hurting us, whether those enemies are legitimate threats or not.

And internal enemies—liberals, pinkos, homosexuals, Jews, nigras, drug dealers, Muslims, Catholics, illegal immigrants, atheists, abortion providers, etc ad nauseum. The essence of right wing politics in the post-WWII years is: "Something bad is out there. Evil. They want to kill you. They want to take your money. They want to ruin your life. We know best, so just let us protect you."

Nothing new. Tribal politics since the beginning of time.

[Dr. Medulla]

It's yet another reason why our traditional "spectrumed" sense of politics is so meaningless. Far too many dimensions to consider when figuring out one's politics, but the degree of contempt one feels for basic human nature is certainly a valid one. I'm still convinced of the basic decency of human nature, of our higher brain functions, but we're still too prone to defaulting to that reptilian part of our brain, and those of an authoritarian bent succeed by pushing those buttons.

That's about where I'm at. I think most people are decent but capable of deep irrationality if made to feel threatened.

Which takes us full circle to the fact that almost every U.S. election (and probably most other ones) of the last 25-30 years has been won on the idea of keeping outside enemies from hurting us, whether those enemies are legitimate threats or not.

And internal enemies—liberals, pinkos, homosexuals, Jews, nigras, drug dealers, Muslims, Catholics, illegal immigrants, atheists, abortion providers, etc ad nauseum. The essence of right wing politics in the post-WWII years is: "Something bad is out there. Evil. They want to kill you. They want to take your money. They want to ruin your life. We know best, so just let us protect you."

Nothing new. Tribal politics since the beginning of time.

The difference, and I wonder if this is what makes it so much more base and restricting, is that we have too many people in the tribe now. A group of 20-50, say—do they have to engage in such manipulation to achieve a working order? The dynamic, I wonder, changes when you're talking about bigger and bigger groups, so the methodology becomes harsher. Jefferson, it seems to me, made the point that republicanism required small populations to work, both at a community level, but also state and country levels. If my recollection is right, his concern has been justified.

[Wolter]

It's yet another reason why our traditional "spectrumed" sense of politics is so meaningless. Far too many dimensions to consider when figuring out one's politics, but the degree of contempt one feels for basic human nature is certainly a valid one. I'm still convinced of the basic decency of human nature, of our higher brain functions, but we're still too prone to defaulting to that reptilian part of our brain, and those of an authoritarian bent succeed by pushing those buttons.

That's about where I'm at. I think most people are decent but capable of deep irrationality if made to feel threatened.

Which takes us full circle to the fact that almost every U.S. election (and probably most other ones) of the last 25-30 years has been won on the idea of keeping outside enemies from hurting us, whether those enemies are legitimate threats or not.

And internal enemies—liberals, pinkos, homosexuals, Jews, nigras, drug dealers, Muslims, Catholics, illegal immigrants, atheists, abortion providers, etc ad nauseum. The essence of right wing politics in the post-WWII years is: "Something bad is out there. Evil. They want to kill you. They want to take your money. They want to ruin your life. We know best, so just let us protect you."

Nothing new. Tribal politics since the beginning of time.

The difference, and I wonder if this is what makes it so much more base and restricting, is that we have too many people in the tribe now. A group of 20-50, say—do they have to engage in such manipulation to achieve a working order? The dynamic, I wonder, changes when you're talking about bigger and bigger groups, so the methodology becomes harsher. Jefferson, it seems to me, made the point that republicanism required small populations to work, both at a community level, but also state and country levels. If my recollection is right, his concern has been justified.

I know that there is no practical way to have any form of Anarchism (I could put the period here, but I think there are still lessons to learn from Left Libertarianism in some form) in a population more than, say...500 or so. Otherwise it's pretty much fait accompli that someone is going to have to exert more authority than someone else.

Edited for really goofy formatting

[IkarisOne]

That's about where I'm at. I think most people are decent but capable of deep irrationality if made to feel threatened.

Which takes us full circle to the fact that almost every U.S. election (and probably most other ones) of the last 25-30 years has been won on the idea of keeping outside enemies from hurting us, whether those enemies are legitimate threats or not.

And internal enemies—liberals, pinkos, homosexuals, Jews, nigras, drug dealers, Muslims, Catholics, illegal immigrants, atheists, abortion providers, etc ad nauseum. The essence of right wing politics in the post-WWII years is: "Something bad is out there. Evil. They want to kill you. They want to take your money. They want to ruin your life. We know best, so just let us protect you."

Nothing new. Tribal politics since the beginning of time.

The difference, and I wonder if this is what makes it so much more base and restricting, is that we have too many people in the tribe now. A group of 20-50, say—do they have to engage in such manipulation to achieve a working order? The dynamic, I wonder, changes when you're talking about bigger and bigger groups, so the methodology becomes harsher. Jefferson, it seems to me, made the point that republicanism required small populations to work, both at a community level, but also state and country levels. If my recollection is right, his concern has been justified.[/quote]

I know that there is no practical way to have any form of Anarchism (I could put the period here, but I think there are still lessons to learn from Left Libertarianism in some form) in a population more than, say...500 or so. Otherwise it's pretty much fait accompli that someone is going to have to exert more authority than someone else.

You know, I hate to be too fatalist but it's all being orchestrated and in such a way that poor slobs like us can hardly see the forest for the trees. There are so many branches to the big "s "System and they have so many cons running on so many different levels no one can ever figure it all out. Anarchy- hell, even Libertarianism- is a pipe dream, but pipe dreams are all well and good in this environment if they get you through the day. If it's any consolation, the game was lost long before your grandparents were born. The whole idea of liberty and all the rest of it was really just the result of a seller's market for craftsmen because of all the plagues that hit Europe in the Middle Ages. All the guilds got together and hassled the ruling class for better wages and then kept pushing. But even Medieval peasants got more vacation time than modern Americans.

[Dr. Medulla]

I know that there is no practical way to have any form of Anarchism (I could put the period here, but I think there are still lessons to learn from Left Libertarianism in some form) in a population more than, say...500 or so. Otherwise it's pretty much fait accompli that someone is going to have to exert more authority than someone else.

This has been my chief rebuttal (or some variation thereof) to eumaas over the years. I'm very sympathetic to the aims of anarchism and regard it as a great critique, but I just don't see it working given the size of our populations now, as well as certain human qualities that lend themselves to domination and subservience.

You know, I hate to be too fatalist but it's all being orchestrated and in such a way that poor slobs like us can hardly see the forest for the trees. There are so many branches to the big "s "System and they have so many cons running on so many different levels no one can ever figure it all out. Anarchy- hell, even Libertarianism- is a pipe dream, but pipe dreams are all well and good in this environment if they get you through the day.

I more than agree. Given how I really feel about our future—as a society, as a part of the biosphere—I should just say fuck it and let my id run wild. But like Pandora, I still have a flicker of hope and figure it's worth thinking and discussing this shit with other.

[IkarisOne]

I know that there is no practical way to have any form of Anarchism (I could put the period here, but I think there are still lessons to learn from Left Libertarianism in some form) in a population more than, say...500 or so. Otherwise it's pretty much fait accompli that someone is going to have to exert more authority than someone else.

This has been my chief rebuttal (or some variation thereof) to eumaas over the years. I'm very sympathetic to the aims of anarchism and regard it as a great critique, but I just don't see it working given the size of our populations now, as well as certain human qualities that lend themselves to domination and subservience.

You know, I hate to be too fatalist but it's all being orchestrated and in such a way that poor slobs like us can hardly see the forest for the trees. There are so many branches to the big "s "System and they have so many cons running on so many different levels no one can ever figure it all out. Anarchy- hell, even Libertarianism- is a pipe dream, but pipe dreams are all well and good in this environment if they get you through the day.

I more than agree. Given how I really feel about our future—as a society, as a part of the biosphere—I should just say fuck it and let my id run wild. But like Pandora, I still have a flicker of hope and figure it's worth thinking and discussing this shit with other.

I hit a point over the summer where I realized just how fixed the game is. And suddenly Jack Kirby and Justice League Unlimited seemed more enticing than ever.

[classof77]

I think the very gestalt of N America (yeah, you too Canada) has fucked us from the beginning. Here's the keys to the candy store--the promised land--take what you want; but be forewarned--the owner is savage and unforgiving. Only the most tenacious and diligent; only the meanest and most opportunistic; only the most crafty and wily will get their hands in a candy jar. It looks good on paper. Europe's down trodden peasants and the politically and religiously oppressed get their fair shake. Level playing field. All you have to do is work (and fight) hard.

Outside of the blatant red herrings I really see little difference between the left and right (as in the dominant political parties). Ultimately, it comes down to how far you'll go to make money and who you'll throw a bone to to make yourself feel less guilty about it. Sure, there are subtleties which makes the left slightly less dangerous (which is why I'll vote for whoever the Dems trot out there) but in the long term it's still about making money. (And as an aside Obama pandering to the fundamentalists sickens me but I guess that's what you have to do.)

Crap. I don't have enough time (or beer) to finish where I was going with this...Agree with several of you who mentioned it will take dire circumstances to change things in North America....hey, maybe the super collider will open up a worm hole that allows nastier-than-us aliens to invade requiring earthlings to cast aside their differences (and profiteering) and work towards a common goal....or maybe a new messiah that will render those middle eastern religions pointless. Yeah, that's what we need...a new religion.

[Bankrobber]

[I still think Palin will be an ongoing embarrassment as the race goes on, not because she's a moron but because she's being forced into a meat grinder without much preparation. McCain and Biden have been high profile guys for a long time and Obama has been a media darling for the past four years. Even the best candidates fuck up, but hers are going to be worse because she's new at it and the media always magnifies the noobs' errors.

The Republicans have won this thing. I have no doubt.

Maybe it is just the pessimism that comes from living in a Red State but I can't see Palin failing in anyway. the GOP has teflon-ized her. She has locked this up for McCain. No one voting for that ticket even cares about him and are probably just waiting for him to die. All i see is love for her and any actual question about her is being deflected. People love to hate the media, and when campaign officials say, "She doesn't have to answer to the media, she answers to the people," the public eats it up.

Obama's lost whatever magic touch he had when Palin was chosen. He has been disillusioning anyway since he sold out and became Sen. Clinton policy-wise (but I guess he had to do that). Right now I'm really only voting for him because I would feel better at least trying to stop the McPain/war with Russia ticket.

At I can take solace in the weirdness that has come from the Palin choice. I had a feminist friend say to me "That bow-legged whore shouldn't be in politics she should be at home breast-feeding her diminished child." and the Republicans have discovered sexism isn't a fairy-tale. (not that ireally see sexism in anyway from Obama or his campaign).

[Dr. Medulla]

Maybe it is just the pessimism that comes from living in a Red State but I can't see Palin failing in anyway. the GOP has teflon-ized her. She has locked this up for McCain. No one voting for that ticket even cares about him and are probably just waiting for him to die. All i see is love for her and any actual question about her is being deflected. People love to hate the media, and when campaign officials say, "She doesn't have to answer to the media, she answers to the people," the public eats it up.

And I'm not seeing that at all. People aren't beating down doors demanding that she faces the press, but I don't see her as having gained a free pass. I maintain that her fuck ups are still in the future, not to mention greater revelations of corruption while governor. Won't make a difference to the GOP and Dem voters, but it should to the undecided.

[JennyB]

Maybe it is just the pessimism that comes from living in a Red State but I can't see Palin failing in anyway. the GOP has teflon-ized her. She has locked this up for McCain. No one voting for that ticket even cares about him and are probably just waiting for him to die. All i see is love for her and any actual question about her is being deflected. People love to hate the media, and when campaign officials say, "She doesn't have to answer to the media, she answers to the people," the public eats it up.

And I'm not seeing that at all. People aren't beating down doors demanding that she faces the press, but I don't see her as having gained a free pass. I maintain that her fuck ups are still in the future, not to mention greater revelations of corruption while governor. Won't make a difference to the GOP and Dem voters, but it should to the undecided.

I agree with Hooks. And funnily enough, it seems like the most scrutiny has come from the tabloid press.

I live in one of the reddest of the red states, and while the veracity of my "poll" is certainly in question, I have observed an almost 10-1 outnumbering of Obama bumper stickers vs. McCain. I think it is difficult for people who live in traditionally blue states to understand how astonishing this is. Missouri is 37% Evangelical (compared with the 27% national average), so to think that Obama even has a chance to take this state is shocking. I'm not naive enough to think it's going to make much of a difference, and I know this is cliched reasoning, but the fact that Obama isn't going to try and appoint anti-choice and anti-gay-rights judges on the Supreme Court is reason enough for me.

[Bankrobber]

Maybe it is just the pessimism that comes from living in a Red State but I can't see Palin failing in anyway. the GOP has teflon-ized her. She has locked this up for McCain. No one voting for that ticket even cares about him and are probably just waiting for him to die. All i see is love for her and any actual question about her is being deflected. People love to hate the media, and when campaign officials say, "She doesn't have to answer to the media, she answers to the people," the public eats it up.

And I'm not seeing that at all. People aren't beating down doors demanding that she faces the press, but I don't see her as having gained a free pass. I maintain that her fuck ups are still in the future, not to mention greater revelations of corruption while governor. Won't make a difference to the GOP and Dem voters, but it should to the undecided.

Well, as i said it might just be the view from here in the morass that breeds women like Palin. I havent talked to friend in Ohio recently I should call him and find the mood in swing-state land.

[Bankrobber]

Maybe it is just the pessimism that comes from living in a Red State but I can't see Palin failing in anyway. the GOP has teflon-ized her. She has locked this up for McCain. No one voting for that ticket even cares about him and are probably just waiting for him to die. All i see is love for her and any actual question about her is being deflected. People love to hate the media, and when campaign officials say, "She doesn't have to answer to the media, she answers to the people," the public eats it up.

And I'm not seeing that at all. People aren't beating down doors demanding that she faces the press, but I don't see her as having gained a free pass. I maintain that her fuck ups are still in the future, not to mention greater revelations of corruption while governor. Won't make a difference to the GOP and Dem voters, but it should to the undecided.

I agree with Hooks. And funnily enough, it seems like the most scrutiny has come from the tabloid press.

I live in one of the reddest of the red states, and while the veracity of my "poll" is certainly in question, I have observed an almost 10-1 outnumbering of Obama bumper stickers vs. McCain. I think it is difficult for people who live in traditionally blue states to understand how astonishing this is. Missouri is 37% Evangelical (compared with the 27% national average), so to think that Obama even has a chance to take this state is shocking. I'm not naive enough to think it's going to make much of a difference, and I know this is cliched reasoning, but the fact that Obama isn't going to try and appoint anti-choice and anti-gay-rights judges on the Supreme Court is reason enough for me.

Maybe both of you are right...but I just feel a gloom about this election.

[IkarisOne]

Maybe both of you are right...but I just feel a gloom about this election.

Don't waste your energy on it. The game is fixed, it's no different than pro wrestling. Whatever happens is not your responsibility.

[Bankrobber]

My major concern at this point is Russia (but perhaps that is fait acompli). If McCain wins my little brother better start getting ready for basic....maybe I will too.

[BostonBeaneater]

Maybe both of you are right...but I just feel a gloom about this election.

Don't waste your energy on it. The game is fixed, it's no different than pro wrestling. Whatever happens is not your responsibility.

I like to think there are way to resist. It's hard to stop anything so large and we don'thave much of a counterculture anymore but I want to believe that there are people seeing it and getting pissed. I sometime think they have us beat and hung to dry but think there can still be an underground.