No, No, Don't Worry. Homophobia Is Pretty Much Over

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matedog
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Homophobia Is Pretty Much Over

Post by matedog » 27 Jun 2013, 1:32pm

Not my go-to gay, but his ex who I also lived with partially enlightened me on a counter gay marriage movement within the community that rejects the heteronormalcy sort of maybe inherent with marriage. Seems silly to me because it's just giving gays the option and some really prefer monogamous, lifetime relationships. I think there was more to it, regarding it being a smaller issue in the grand scheme of things. Let me do some research...
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Homophobia Is Pretty Much Over

Post by Dr. Medulla » 27 Jun 2013, 1:42pm

matedog wrote:Not my go-to gay, but his ex who I also lived with partially enlightened me on a counter gay marriage movement within the community that rejects the heteronormalcy sort of maybe inherent with marriage. Seems silly to me because it's just giving gays the option and some really prefer monogamous, lifetime relationships. I think there was more to it, regarding it being a smaller issue in the grand scheme of things. Let me do some research...
And that's all it's about—rectifying a historical wrong where one group has been denied a basic human freedom, as well as the legal benefits and responsibilities that come with partnering up. If you don't want to exercise that freedom positively, cool, but it must be your choice.

edit: Just to tack on to this, my diss. supervisor's first book is about coming-out rituals amongst homosexuals and their families. She counters the common belief that it's a traumatic experience, with the child being shunned, parents divided, etc etc. In fact, the more common experience is acceptance and protection from parents and siblings. As pertains to whether homosexuals even want to get married, much older gays and lesbians somewhat frowned upon the whole coming-out thing. Don't draw attention to yourself. Be out or not, but don't make such a big deal about it. It's largely been a Boomer-driven phenomenon (big surprise: Boomers wanting all of society to look at and acknowledge them). So, yeah, older homosexuals may not be as interested in getting married, but there's no evidence that suggests Boomer, Xer, or Millennial homosexuals don't want that option.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Homophobia Is Pretty Much Over

Post by Rat Patrol » 27 Jun 2013, 1:50pm

IkarisOne wrote:I think there's a lot more going on than we know at the moment. We will know in 20 years. I've known gay people literally my entire life, particularly gay men. My mom was a professional night club singer who specialized in show tunes- need I say more? I always thought the appeal for men was not getting married. I've read a lot of older gay men say the very same thing.
Well...we're now 9 years into legalized gay marriage in Massachusetts. To the point where it's completely been normalized, and there's 6 years of official Census data on it. I Googled for some stats...only one I found was this for the 2004-08 period: http://blog.masslive.com/breakingnews/2 ... ge0531.jpg. I'm sure there's something in the state of fed Census data through at least 2010 since gender is officially tracked, but don't feel like trawling through the Statistical Abstract to find it. 63-37% women-men split in the marriage licenses over the first 5 years. The year-to-year differential, though, narrowed each successive year. 35% men in '04, 40% men in '08.

Most obvious cause for this is that adoption rates for lesbian couples are traditionally higher, and the ones with kids had front-loaded urgency to make it official as soon as the law went into effect (same true for men with kids...but men with kids over-represent in the initial wave and aren't nearly as numerous as women with kids). Now that the couples who wanted to marry for the kids have for the most part cleared through the system it's reverting to more or less a normal baseline: 60-40. Probably less now if I could only locate the data through 2010 since the gap was closing by close to 1% per year. If it's trending towards like a 55-45 split by the 2020 census when there's the first full-decade's worth of normal data available then that's a very minor statistical difference between genders. Juxtapose it against all the much starker differences in breadwinners-by-gender and child rearers-by-gender and it's almost shockingly even.


I'd have to dig even deeper into the unused recesses of my dusty Sociology degree to substantiate the behavior, but statistically that would point to a lot of under-reporting in what gay men say they would pursue when the option--largely--isn't available to them to raise a family as a same-sex couple vs. what they actually would pursue when the legal protections (esp. around adoption and child custody) are available to them and normalized. Feed through male- vs. female-brain psychology and have a Freudian field day as to why in colloquial conversation gay men will under-report to such a degree. The psychology has got to be fascinating about this. But the numbers don't lie on the sociology side. Gay men outperform the traditionally understood gender differences in terms of marriage licenses.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Homophobia Is Pretty Much Over

Post by Flex » 27 Jun 2013, 3:11pm

IkarisOne wrote:What is wrong with you? Do you even read what I write anymore or do you just go into automatic attack mode to ingratiate yourself with Tapeworm? I quite clearly said I was talking about the Democrats, the so-called progressives, and the neutered media poodles.
You're a peach, Chris.

Anyways, I don't share your ire of people spending a day being happy that the country has become a somewhat less inequitable place. I don't think their happiness has much long term positive or ill effect on the coalition building that needs to be done to develop a viable alternative to the present state of affairs.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Homophobia Is Pretty Much Over

Post by IkarisOne » 27 Jun 2013, 3:35pm

Flex wrote:
IkarisOne wrote:What is wrong with you? Do you even read what I write anymore or do you just go into automatic attack mode to ingratiate yourself with Tapeworm? I quite clearly said I was talking about the Democrats, the so-called progressives, and the neutered media poodles.
You're a peach, Chris.

Anyways, I don't share your ire of people spending a day being happy that the country has become a somewhat less inequitable place. I don't think their happiness has much long term positive or ill effect on the coalition building that needs to be done to develop a viable alternative to the present state of affairs.

Yet again, NOT. MY. POINT. My point is the deliberate use of this issue to distract everyone from the war of attrition being waged on the economic future of all of America.

One of my FB group moderators is gay; what did he link to on Tuesday? Not DOMA, he linked to this:

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/co ... ain-silent

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Homophobia Is Pretty Much Over

Post by Dr. Medulla » 27 Jun 2013, 3:50pm

Nothing could better prove the health of America's media than if it refused to cover this distracting Supreme Court decision or anything to do with the effort to overturn discriminatory legislation. :rolleyes: Does anyone really think that if homosexuals stayed in the closet and accepted their marginalization that suddenly the media would be good guys and cover economic exploitation?

Jesus Christ, this logic …
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Homophobia Is Pretty Much Over

Post by Flex » 27 Jun 2013, 3:53pm

IkarisOne wrote:Yet again, NOT. MY. POINT. My point is the deliberate use of this issue to distract everyone from the war of attrition being waged on the economic future of all of America.
Yes, I get the point you're trying to make. The kernel of the point you're trying to make and what you're actually saying aren't the same thing, though. I'm sure you'll just dismiss this as my illiterate sheepledom or something, but it's a point you may want to consider on your own time.

Anyways, I'm out.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Homophobia Is Pretty Much Over

Post by matedog » 27 Jun 2013, 3:55pm

Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Homophobia Is Pretty Much Over

Post by Wolter » 27 Jun 2013, 3:57pm

matedog wrote:On a side note: http://www.straightprideuk.com/
I'd like to believe that's satire, but I'm not new to the Internet.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Homophobia Is Pretty Much Over

Post by Flex » 27 Jun 2013, 3:59pm

Wolter wrote:I'd like to believe that's satire, but I'm not new to the Internet.
It's impossible to tell anymore.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Homophobia Is Pretty Much Over

Post by Dr. Medulla » 27 Jun 2013, 4:00pm

matedog wrote:On a side note: http://www.straightprideuk.com/
Yay, the sexuality front gets a Klan!

edit: If that's satire, it's extremely well done.
Last edited by Dr. Medulla on 27 Jun 2013, 4:06pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Homophobia Is Pretty Much Over

Post by IkarisOne » 27 Jun 2013, 4:00pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:Nothing could better prove the health of America's media than if it refused to cover this distracting Supreme Court decision or anything to do with the effort to overturn discriminatory legislation. :rolleyes: Does anyone really think that if homosexuals stayed in the closet and accepted their marginalization that suddenly the media would be good guys and cover economic exploitation?

Jesus Christ, this logic …
Well, how about this then- Bill Clinton signed DOMA into law when he could have stopped it dead in his tracks with a pen stroke and saved everyone all this trouble and strife. So does that mean the gay community will rally against Hillary Clinton in the 2016 primaries?

Yeah, that'll be the day.

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Homophobia Is Pretty Much Over

Post by Dr. Medulla » 27 Jun 2013, 4:06pm

IkarisOne wrote:
Dr. Medulla wrote:Nothing could better prove the health of America's media than if it refused to cover this distracting Supreme Court decision or anything to do with the effort to overturn discriminatory legislation. :rolleyes: Does anyone really think that if homosexuals stayed in the closet and accepted their marginalization that suddenly the media would be good guys and cover economic exploitation?

Jesus Christ, this logic …
Well, how about this then- Bill Clinton signed DOMA into law when he could have stopped it dead in his tracks with a pen stroke and saved everyone all this trouble and strife. So does that mean the gay community will rally against Hillary Clinton in the 2016 primaries?

Yeah, that'll be the day.
I have no fucking clue what point you're struggling to make. I have no idea what homosexuals will opt to do in the 2016 primaries—probably they'll evaluate which candidate best reflects their interests (personal and/or group).
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Homophobia Is Pretty Much Over

Post by IkarisOne » 27 Jun 2013, 4:17pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:I have no fucking clue

Finally, some honesty around here.

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Homophobia Is Pretty Much Over

Post by JoseUnidos » 27 Jun 2013, 4:30pm

IkarisOne wrote:
Dr. Medulla wrote:Nothing could better prove the health of America's media than if it refused to cover this distracting Supreme Court decision or anything to do with the effort to overturn discriminatory legislation. :rolleyes: Does anyone really think that if homosexuals stayed in the closet and accepted their marginalization that suddenly the media would be good guys and cover economic exploitation?

Jesus Christ, this logic …
Well, how about this then- Bill Clinton signed DOMA into law when he could have stopped it dead in his tracks with a pen stroke and saved everyone all this trouble and strife. So does that mean the gay community will rally against Hillary Clinton in the 2016 primaries?
DOMA passed through Congress with 427 votes, more than enough to override a presidential veto, which Clinton certainly understood.

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