CBS reporting 27 dead in Connecticut school shooting.

[Dr. Medulla]

Not seeking to detract from the actual horror at all, but rather the response to it all, how much of it is rooted in it being white, well-to-do kids who were murdered? If a gunman killed a couple dozen Latino children in San Diego, would the national mourning be the same? I'm skeptical. Similar to Columbine being a national tragedy in no small part because it happened in a wealthy suburban school.

I dunno. I think that since it was an OUTSIDE person who had a very tenuous connection to the school at best, it totally differs from Columbine. I know that reports vary, but I am going to go with the assumption that the Columbine shooters were bullied, and I think I can (in a fucked up way) understand that motivation. I think this situation transcends race (and there were two kids of color killed). If some shooter went into ANY school and murdered 20 first graders, some having been shot 11 times, we'd react the same way. At least I hope we would.

I would hope so, too, but the fact that is occurred in a well-to-do community makes me wary of whether the response would be the same if the victims were from an underclass.

[matedog]

Not seeking to detract from the actual horror at all, but rather the response to it all, how much of it is rooted in it being white, well-to-do kids who were murdered? If a gunman killed a couple dozen Latino children in San Diego, would the national mourning be the same? I'm skeptical. Similar to Columbine being a national tragedy in no small part because it happened in a wealthy suburban school.

There are constant murders going on in the south and west sides of Chicago. Those are the black and Latino neighborhoods.

I generally agree that the white majority society of the US would be more hurt/appalled at white children vs. brown/black/yellow children dying, that's human nature. However, I don't think the "kids die in the hood every day and no one cares" argument is completely analogous. Some innocent bystander taking a stray bullet during a nearby gang fight isn't the same as someone entering a school and deliberately taking dozens of lives. They are both tragedies, but that is about where they similarities end. They are tragedies of vastly different magnitudes and for very different reasons and with very different ramifications.

[Wolter]

Not seeking to detract from the actual horror at all, but rather the response to it all, how much of it is rooted in it being white, well-to-do kids who were murdered? If a gunman killed a couple dozen Latino children in San Diego, would the national mourning be the same? I'm skeptical. Similar to Columbine being a national tragedy in no small part because it happened in a wealthy suburban school.

There are constant murders going on in the south and west sides of Chicago. Those are the black and Latino neighborhoods.

I generally agree that the white majority society of the US would be more hurt/appalled at white children vs. brown/black/yellow children dying, that's human nature. However, I don't think the "kids die in the hood every day and no one cares" argument is completely analogous. Some innocent bystander taking a stray bullet during a nearby gang fight isn't the same as someone entering a school and deliberately taking dozens of lives. They are both tragedies, but that is about where they similarities end. They are tragedies of vastly different magnitudes and for very different reasons and with very different ramifications.

An isolated incident from earlier this year: http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... NHsKr-9Kc0

[Dr. Medulla]

David Sirota also had a piece about how most mass killers tend to be white men, but race is never seen as a factor. Which isn't to say it is a factor in this or other cases (that is, not necessarily), but to make the point that white is so normalized as to preclude being under consideration.
http://www.salon.com/2012/12/17/would_t ... white_men/

[matedog]

Not seeking to detract from the actual horror at all, but rather the response to it all, how much of it is rooted in it being white, well-to-do kids who were murdered? If a gunman killed a couple dozen Latino children in San Diego, would the national mourning be the same? I'm skeptical. Similar to Columbine being a national tragedy in no small part because it happened in a wealthy suburban school.

There are constant murders going on in the south and west sides of Chicago. Those are the black and Latino neighborhoods.

I generally agree that the white majority society of the US would be more hurt/appalled at white children vs. brown/black/yellow children dying, that's human nature. However, I don't think the "kids die in the hood every day and no one cares" argument is completely analogous. Some innocent bystander taking a stray bullet during a nearby gang fight isn't the same as someone entering a school and deliberately taking dozens of lives. They are both tragedies, but that is about where they similarities end. They are tragedies of vastly different magnitudes and for very different reasons and with very different ramifications.

An isolated incident from earlier this year: http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... NHsKr-9Kc0

That's pretty awful, but it seems to suggest that those were likely gang related. I'm not saying people dying in gang related violence isn't tragic, loss of life almost always is, it's just that someone can justify that a lot more easily than a random mass murder of small children. One you can say "oh they were playing with fire," the other has no level of justification.

Naturally there is an element of suburban middle class white America being able to relate to the idea of their kids getting shot up in a class room by a psycho even if it is far far far less likely than people that live in areas with high gang activity.

[matedog]

David Sirota also had a piece about how most mass killers tend to be white men, but race is never seen as a factor. Which isn't to say it is a factor in this or other cases (that is, not necessarily), but to make the point that white is so normalized as to preclude being under consideration.
http://www.salon.com/2012/12/17/would_t ... white_men/

Not to come across as too self loathing, but is it me or do white people overwhelmingly come across as whiners. Like we are so privileged that we find the dumbest shit to get up in arms about, whether it be free range meat or the right to own ridiculous guns. Because we aren't persecuted, we go out of our way to find shit to make us feel like we are victims or are the underdogs. The fact that most mass killers are white men kinda ties into this. Most are legitimately crazy, but how much of it stems from this kind of self absorption mentality that "oh, I'm special, no one understands me, I have it so rough"?

[JennyB]

David Sirota also had a piece about how most mass killers tend to be white men, but race is never seen as a factor. Which isn't to say it is a factor in this or other cases (that is, not necessarily), but to make the point that white is so normalized as to preclude being under consideration.
http://www.salon.com/2012/12/17/would_t ... white_men/

Not to come across as too self loathing, but is it me or do white people overwhelmingly come across as whiners. Like we are so privileged that we find the dumbest shit to get up in arms about, whether it be free range meat or the right to own ridiculous guns. Because we aren't persecuted, we go out of our way to find shit to make us feel like we are victims or are the underdogs. The fact that most mass killers are white men kinda ties into this. Most are legitimately crazy, but how much of it stems from this kind of self absorption mentality that "oh, I'm special, no one understands me, I have it so rough"?

You're absolutely right.

[Rat Patrol]

Not seeking to detract from the actual horror at all, but rather the response to it all, how much of it is rooted in it being white, well-to-do kids who were murdered? If a gunman killed a couple dozen Latino children in San Diego, would the national mourning be the same? I'm skeptical. Similar to Columbine being a national tragedy in no small part because it happened in a wealthy suburban school.

There are constant murders going on in the south and west sides of Chicago. Those are the black and Latino neighborhoods.

I generally agree that the white majority society of the US would be more hurt/appalled at white children vs. brown/black/yellow children dying, that's human nature. However, I don't think the "kids die in the hood every day and no one cares" argument is completely analogous. Some innocent bystander taking a stray bullet during a nearby gang fight isn't the same as someone entering a school and deliberately taking dozens of lives. They are both tragedies, but that is about where they similarities end. They are tragedies of vastly different magnitudes and for very different reasons and with very different ramifications.

An isolated incident from earlier this year: http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... NHsKr-9Kc0

That's pretty awful, but it seems to suggest that those were likely gang related. I'm not saying people dying in gang related violence isn't tragic, loss of life almost always is, it's just that someone can justify that a lot more easily than a random mass murder of small children. One you can say "oh they were playing with fire," the other has no level of justification.

Naturally there is an element of suburban middle class white America being able to relate to the idea of their kids getting shot up in a class room by a psycho even if it is far far far less likely than people that live in areas with high gang activity.

While I doubt Newtown had a localized gang problem due to small size and insular nature, its proximity to Waterbury and Danbury--which have MAJOR gang problems--didn't exactly leave them out-of-reach. There's enough overlap, plus kids in busing programs from large cities, that by the time kids get to middle school they probably know a kid or two who's in the Latin Kings. You'd be surprised at how pervasive it is in the CT 'burbs. My hometown was large enough and had its couple of bad housing projects to have a local chapter, but the bedroom communities know of it too.

But it rarely gets down to the elementary school level. I was oblivious to it back then, and my school did have 'projects' kids and some busing transplants from Hartford.


Really, though, this was so unlike a gang issue that there's no comparison. I agree that inner city violence against children gets ignored by the media. I also agree that this was pretty frickin' extraordinary on the merits and deserved the attention it got. White folks or no. If it were an inner city school there would definitely be saturation coverage. Whether it would've maintained its intensity a week later is open for debate, but that's splitting hairs on degrees of intensity. This is one of the biggest traumas to hit the nation at-large since 9/11...bigger than the Arizona/Gabby Giffords shooting. Elementary school kids: that's a really big fucking deal no matter where it happens.

[JennyB]

Not seeking to detract from the actual horror at all, but rather the response to it all, how much of it is rooted in it being white, well-to-do kids who were murdered? If a gunman killed a couple dozen Latino children in San Diego, would the national mourning be the same? I'm skeptical. Similar to Columbine being a national tragedy in no small part because it happened in a wealthy suburban school.

There are constant murders going on in the south and west sides of Chicago. Those are the black and Latino neighborhoods.

I generally agree that the white majority society of the US would be more hurt/appalled at white children vs. brown/black/yellow children dying, that's human nature. However, I don't think the "kids die in the hood every day and no one cares" argument is completely analogous. Some innocent bystander taking a stray bullet during a nearby gang fight isn't the same as someone entering a school and deliberately taking dozens of lives. They are both tragedies, but that is about where they similarities end. They are tragedies of vastly different magnitudes and for very different reasons and with very different ramifications.

An isolated incident from earlier this year: http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... NHsKr-9Kc0

That's pretty awful, but it seems to suggest that those were likely gang related. I'm not saying people dying in gang related violence isn't tragic, loss of life almost always is, it's just that someone can justify that a lot more easily than a random mass murder of small children. One you can say "oh they were playing with fire," the other has no level of justification.

Naturally there is an element of suburban middle class white America being able to relate to the idea of their kids getting shot up in a class room by a psycho even if it is far far far less likely than people that live in areas with high gang activity.

And not to minimize the incidents in Chicago, but those people were injured, not killed. And any child in ANY school, regardless of socioeconomic or racial factors, should be safe from a madman coming in and shooting you 11 times. I think this is comparing apples to oranges.

[Dr. Medulla]

David Sirota also had a piece about how most mass killers tend to be white men, but race is never seen as a factor. Which isn't to say it is a factor in this or other cases (that is, not necessarily), but to make the point that white is so normalized as to preclude being under consideration.
http://www.salon.com/2012/12/17/would_t ... white_men/

Not to come across as too self loathing, but is it me or do white people overwhelmingly come across as whiners. Like we are so privileged that we find the dumbest shit to get up in arms about, whether it be free range meat or the right to own ridiculous guns. Because we aren't persecuted, we go out of our way to find shit to make us feel like we are victims or are the underdogs. The fact that most mass killers are white men kinda ties into this. Most are legitimately crazy, but how much of it stems from this kind of self absorption mentality that "oh, I'm special, no one understands me, I have it so rough"?

There's been some stuff done on the effect of deindustrialization and masculinity, where it's tougher for any household to get by on a single income, but culturally we still privilege the man who will take care of his family. What happens to that sense of male ego when it's tougher and tougher to be a good provider, to have a hopeful future, etc? Throw in the fact that being white no longer has as much inherent privilege as it once did. None of which excuses white guys who go on a shooting spree, but social expectations on what it means to be a white male often run contrary to realistic economic expectations, which can add an extra load onto some personalities. Then throw in the "suck it up, big baby" attitude towards mental health and you lessen the chance of treatment. And then make sure weapons are readily available for those impulsive rages. There is an argument to be made that American culture and law really does well to maximize spree killings in a way that other Western nations don't.

[Flex]

Elementary school kids: that's a really big fucking deal no matter where it happens.*

*Deal not valid in the Middle East

[Dr. Medulla]

Elementary school kids: that's a really big fucking deal no matter where it happens.*

*Deal not valid in the Middle East

Or Pakistan.

And just this past Saturday: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012 ... girls.html

[eumaas]

Elementary school kids: that's a really big fucking deal no matter where it happens.*

*Deal not valid in the Middle East

Or Pakistan.

[Dr. Medulla]

Elementary school kids: that's a really big fucking deal no matter where it happens.*

*Deal not valid in the Middle East

Or Pakistan.

Pakistani children made this sign:

[101Walterton]

I think you have to take into account that these kids are 'our' demographic. By 'our' I mean the majority of people on here and the majority of people in the societies we live in; white, working / middle class, English speaking, law abiding, educated, living in Christian Western World Countries. We are watching our news, reading our newspapers and posting on our websites. Although we think it is, most of the 'world' is not like us and there are plenty of places where this would barely register (if at all).