Happy Hiroshima Day!

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BostonBeaneater
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by BostonBeaneater » 06 Aug 2015, 3:59pm

We nuked them out of revenge and to scare the Soviets away from getting their grimy little mitts all over the Pacific rim. I don't mean to callous but the Japanese had it coming. War is a nasty disgrace marshaled by the rich class and fought by the poor class. At the same time, I don't for one second wish we were pacifist or pussyfooted with the Nazis or the Imperial Japanese. Both of these jackbooted bastard nations would have gleefully nuked the shit out of the USA, the UK, and even Canada. The time to show mercy came after the war when the democratic allies fostered Germany and Japan to be functioning mostly peaceful nations again. The time for mercy was not 1945. My 2 cents anyway.

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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by Dr. Medulla » 06 Aug 2015, 4:00pm

101Walterton wrote:
Dr. Medulla wrote:
101Walterton wrote:I'm sure if you asked my Nan, who spent night after night in a bomb shelter in the back with her 2 children not knowing if they would be blown to pieces, she would say it was justified.



Yes I know my time lines ,my point being Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened in Germany and England every night, just on smaller scale. And no that doesn't make it OK either but that was how wars were fought at that time.
Hypothetical but not entirely far-fetched because we know the Nazis were also seeking to build a nuclear weapon: Would your grandmother have believed the Germans nuking London to end the war would have been justified?

You're not wrong at all about how World War II was fought—in terms of carnage, the raids on Dresden and Tokyo were even worse—but the larger point that is being made here is that our historical memory of World War II makes key moral distinctions between what the Axis powers did and what the Allies did. But when judging the morality of an act, knowing the identities of the actors shouldn't matter. We're concerned with the action. If it was moral for the Americans to end the war by using nuclear weapons, then it would be moral for the Germans to do the same, no? If that conclusion is problematic, then it suggests that one's position is based more on tribalism—what my team does is good and what that team does is bad. Plenty of people subscribe to that position, but it's entirely unstable, subject to the whims of those in power.
I agree. I only used my Nan to emphasise that what the allies and Germans had been doing in Europe was no different. If Germany or Japan had had dropped the bomb I wouldn't consider it any more or less evil.
Okay, gotcha.
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by 101Walterton » 06 Aug 2015, 5:22pm

My dad used to tell a story of when he was a child during the war. All the local kids were out playing in the street when they heard the drone of aircraft approaching. They all started jumping up and down, waving and cheering 'the boys' on to go and bomb the Germans. As the planes came into view the sirens went off and they ran to the shelters shouting at the 'Jerry bastard killers'.
As an adult even he laughed at the irony.

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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by BostonBeaneater » 09 Aug 2015, 2:29pm

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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by Dr. Medulla » 09 Aug 2015, 2:43pm

Okay, I laughed.
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by eumaas » 23 May 2016, 12:01pm

This is the absolute worst argument one could make.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 393791.cms

Implication: "Leaders make difficult decisions in war crimes, decisions that are always completely morally neutral. Look, deciding what is moral in war is the job of historians, not war crime tribunals."

What a godawful argument easy to deploy in defense of war crimes. Either stand up for the bombing or say it was bad. The idea that only historians get to judge decisions made during war is nuts. You've basically abandoned all moral evaluation.

Can you imagine this: "It's up to the historians to examine the history of Unit 731, but leaders make all kinds of difficult decisions. It's the historian's job to ask questions about Nanjing."

I doubt any American would be comfortable with moral neutrality on Japanese war crimes. This is just self-serving wishy-washy BS. It's the president supporting the bombing without having to say that he supported it. I would prefer he just said it was the right thing to do rather than this horseshit.
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by Flex » 23 May 2016, 12:05pm

Yeah, if you think the bombings were the right thing to do, say so. But don't play these dumb games.
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by BostonBeaneater » 23 May 2016, 12:18pm

Flex wrote:Yeah, if you think the bombings were the right thing to do, say so. But don't play these dumb games.
I don't think the bombing were the best thing to do but I can't say I wouldn't have done the same had I been in Truman's shoes.
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by Dr. Medulla » 23 May 2016, 12:25pm

eumaas wrote:This is the absolute worst argument one could make.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 393791.cms

Implication: "Leaders make difficult decisions in war crimes, decisions that are always completely morally neutral. Look, deciding what is moral in war is the job of historians, not war crime tribunals."

What a godawful argument easy to deploy in defense of war crimes. Either stand up for the bombing or say it was bad. The idea that only historians get to judge decisions made during war is nuts. You've basically abandoned all moral evaluation.

Can you imagine this: "It's up to the historians to examine the history of Unit 731, but leaders make all kinds of difficult decisions. It's the historian's job to ask questions about Nanjing."

I doubt any American would be comfortable with moral neutrality on Japanese war crimes. This is just self-serving wishy-washy BS. It's the president supporting the bombing without having to say that he supported it. I would prefer he just said it was the right thing to do rather than this horseshit.
It also ignores the fact that these discussions happened at the time. That we treat this choice with a shrug is something that has emerged since, not as some kind of universal principle. As late as the 60s, there was plenty of open discussion at the highest levels that thought it was immoral. It wasn't just abandoning matters to the future. It's horribly anachronistic to suggest that there was no debate over the morality of matters. There were many generals who understood that if the US had lost the war, their actions would have gotten them hung by the victors. The only reason this becomes neutral or objectively just is because the US won and that its foreign policy subsequently rested on nuclear deterrence. To think otherwise is wishcasting.

edit: It really is a curious thing to me that there was greater criticism of the bombing at the time, when you would thing relief at peace might have tempered that argument. Instead of gaining perspective with the passage of time, in the same way that we now better appreciate the horrors of the Holocaust or slavery, the use of nuclear weapons has gained a numbing mystification. Why has Hiroshima and Nagasaki gained almost a sanctified status?
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by BostonBeaneater » 23 May 2016, 1:09pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: Why has Hiroshima and Nagasaki gained almost a sanctified status?
Because we nuked them and not the other way around.
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by Dr. Medulla » 23 May 2016, 1:17pm

BostonBeaneater wrote:
Dr. Medulla wrote: Why has Hiroshima and Nagasaki gained almost a sanctified status?
Because we nuked them and not the other way around.
Precisely. Which suggests that the present attitude toward the event(s) is not driven by some larger principle save for my country right or wrong. And, as such, let's forego every other justification and hedging that people trot out and just say America doesn't apologize for nothin'. At least any subsequent conversation can start on a more honest footing.
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by Silent Majority » 23 May 2016, 1:40pm

You know who found the Bomb to be an unnecessary barbarity? Stalin.
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by Dr. Medulla » 23 May 2016, 1:50pm

Silent Majority wrote:You know who found the Bomb to be an unnecessary barbarity? Stalin.
There's something more honest, he believed, about traditional methods of mass starvation, labour camps, and machine gunning millions to death. Stalin was a vinyl guy who sneered at Truman converting everything to compact disc.
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by Flex » 23 May 2016, 1:54pm

You know who thinks James makes good points? Hitler.
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by Silent Majority » 23 May 2016, 4:27pm

Flex wrote:You know who thinks James makes good points? Hitler.
The coke addled rants I edit out of our podcast are for your ears only, dude.
'But also: hey dude, you can just go looking for more glasses. They're all free now. '

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