Happy Hiroshima Day!

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Dr. Medulla
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by Dr. Medulla » 06 Aug 2015, 8:47am

Silent Majority wrote:Medulla take your hippy "not nuking women and children" bullshit outta here.
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by biopunk » 06 Aug 2015, 9:34am

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About what I've come to expect from you prigs.

C'mon, give us your best smug moral posturing, it's been oh so long you've enlightened us with your pronouncements. :ohboy:
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by matedog » 06 Aug 2015, 9:44am

biopunk wrote:So how would you have ended the war, oh great source of wisdom and moral superiority? :rolleyes:
It's pretty well covered in the earlier pages of this thread. As well as the article I just posted.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by biopunk » 06 Aug 2015, 10:01am

matedog wrote:
biopunk wrote:So how would you have ended the war, oh great source of wisdom and moral superiority? :rolleyes:
It's pretty well covered in the earlier pages of this thread. As well as the article I just posted.
I can see neither Neil's or James' position for their morally superior, hypothetical, non-nuclear outcome to WW2 in this thread.

Care to quote those out, matedog?
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by Rat Patrol » 06 Aug 2015, 10:07am

Jesus Christ, this Bomb. :rolleyes:
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by matedog » 06 Aug 2015, 10:15am

biopunk wrote:
matedog wrote:
biopunk wrote:So how would you have ended the war, oh great source of wisdom and moral superiority? :rolleyes:
It's pretty well covered in the earlier pages of this thread. As well as the article I just posted.
I can see neither Neil's or James' position for their morally superior, hypothetical, non-nuclear outcome to WW2 in this thread.

Care to quote those out, matedog?
You don't sound terribly open to opinions that differ from your own, but I'll play along:
http://clashcity.com/boards/viewtopic.p ... 45#p208202

From the article,
In fact, six of the seven five-star generals and admirals of that time believed that there was no reason to use them, that the Japanese were already defeated, knew it, and were likely to surrender before any American invasion could be launched.
etc.

Basically, conditional surrender was an option, which is what we accepted anyway, so the use of the atomic bombs to eviscerate innocent civilians was unnecessary. The Slate article makes an interesting (and questionable) point that Truman's decision to use the bomb was more about expediting the end of the war such that Soviets would gain less control over parts of Europe and Asia as well as showing off our nuclear capabilities in preparation for the impending Cold War.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by Silent Majority » 06 Aug 2015, 11:59am

It might have even come up in the original thread, but if you feel like non-combatants should be eviscerated because of the actions of their governments, then you've got a lot in common with the people behind 9/11.
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by Dr. Medulla » 06 Aug 2015, 12:28pm

Silent Majority wrote:It might have even come up in the original thread, but if you feel like non-combatants should be eviscerated because of the actions of their governments, then you've got a lot in common with the people behind 9/11.
Actually, leaving my pacifism aside and going devil's advocate, that's in the realm of what I find the more persuasive defence (persuasive being a very relative measure). That is, in the 20th century, the expansion of capitalism and the state has been so great, so penetrating, that everyone is now a resource, interchangeable and deployable, for the state's war-making power and therefore a legitimate target for a wartime enemy. Like it or not, we all play a function for the modern state on multiple levels, including its capacity to conduct war. Killing civilians can directly hinder a nation's ability to make war because every death is one less resource to be used to supply the military. But if you go down that route, you can't be outraged by enemy attacks on our own civilians. You accept that you're a legitimate target. And you open the door to the legitimacy of the Holocaust—the state has the right to eliminate all perceived enemies, regardless of whether they are overtly militarized.
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by Silent Majority » 06 Aug 2015, 12:31pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
Silent Majority wrote:It might have even come up in the original thread, but if you feel like non-combatants should be eviscerated because of the actions of their governments, then you've got a lot in common with the people behind 9/11.
Actually, leaving my pacifism aside and going devil's advocate, that's in the realm of what I find the more persuasive defence (persuasive being a very relative measure). That is, in the 20th century, the expansion of capitalism and the state has been so great, so penetrating, that everyone is now a resource, interchangeable and deployable, for the state's war-making power and therefore a legitimate target for a wartime enemy. Like it or not, we all play a function for the modern state on multiple levels, including its capacity to conduct war. Killing civilians can directly hinder a nation's ability to make war because every death is one less resource to be used to supply the military. But if you go down that route, you can't be outraged by enemy attacks on our own civilians. You accept that you're a legitimate target. And you open the door to the legitimacy of the Holocaust—the state has the right to eliminate all perceived enemies, regardless of whether they are overtly militarized.
But then it's so much harder for the West to go on calling themselves the good guys with straight faces.
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by Dr. Medulla » 06 Aug 2015, 12:38pm

Silent Majority wrote:
Dr. Medulla wrote:
Silent Majority wrote:It might have even come up in the original thread, but if you feel like non-combatants should be eviscerated because of the actions of their governments, then you've got a lot in common with the people behind 9/11.
Actually, leaving my pacifism aside and going devil's advocate, that's in the realm of what I find the more persuasive defence (persuasive being a very relative measure). That is, in the 20th century, the expansion of capitalism and the state has been so great, so penetrating, that everyone is now a resource, interchangeable and deployable, for the state's war-making power and therefore a legitimate target for a wartime enemy. Like it or not, we all play a function for the modern state on multiple levels, including its capacity to conduct war. Killing civilians can directly hinder a nation's ability to make war because every death is one less resource to be used to supply the military. But if you go down that route, you can't be outraged by enemy attacks on our own civilians. You accept that you're a legitimate target. And you open the door to the legitimacy of the Holocaust—the state has the right to eliminate all perceived enemies, regardless of whether they are overtly militarized.
But then it's so much harder for the West to go on calling themselves the good guys with straight faces.
Bingo. It's an admission that there should be no such thing as war crimes because any act that contributes to victory must be just.
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by 101Walterton » 06 Aug 2015, 3:26pm

I'm sure if you asked my Nan, who spent night after night in a bomb shelter in the back with her 2 children not knowing if they would be blown to pieces, she would say it was justified.



Yes I know my time lines ,my point being Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened in Germany and England every night, just on smaller scale. And no that doesn't make it OK either but that was how wars were fought at that time.

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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by Silent Majority » 06 Aug 2015, 3:38pm

101Walterton wrote:that was how wars were fought at that time.
But not really, though. It was more of a science fiction unthinkable fiery madhouse.
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by 101Walterton » 06 Aug 2015, 3:42pm

Silent Majority wrote:
101Walterton wrote:that was how wars were fought at that time.
But not really, though. It was more of a science fiction unthinkable fiery madhouse.
Just a bigger bomb. The only difference today is that they can guide the bombs to targets (sometimes accurately) instead of dropping 100 and hoping 1 hits the target.

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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by Dr. Medulla » 06 Aug 2015, 3:48pm

101Walterton wrote:I'm sure if you asked my Nan, who spent night after night in a bomb shelter in the back with her 2 children not knowing if they would be blown to pieces, she would say it was justified.



Yes I know my time lines ,my point being Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened in Germany and England every night, just on smaller scale. And no that doesn't make it OK either but that was how wars were fought at that time.
Hypothetical but not entirely far-fetched because we know the Nazis were also seeking to build a nuclear weapon: Would your grandmother have believed the Germans nuking London to end the war would have been justified?

You're not wrong at all about how World War II was fought—in terms of carnage, the raids on Dresden and Tokyo were even worse—but the larger point that is being made here is that our historical memory of World War II makes key moral distinctions between what the Axis powers did and what the Allies did. But when judging the morality of an act, knowing the identities of the actors shouldn't matter. We're concerned with the action. If it was moral for the Americans to end the war by using nuclear weapons, then it would be moral for the Germans to do the same, no? If that conclusion is problematic, then it suggests that one's position is based more on tribalism—what my team does is good and what that team does is bad. Plenty of people subscribe to that position, but it's entirely unstable, subject to the whims of those in power.
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Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!

Post by 101Walterton » 06 Aug 2015, 3:55pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
101Walterton wrote:I'm sure if you asked my Nan, who spent night after night in a bomb shelter in the back with her 2 children not knowing if they would be blown to pieces, she would say it was justified.



Yes I know my time lines ,my point being Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened in Germany and England every night, just on smaller scale. And no that doesn't make it OK either but that was how wars were fought at that time.
Hypothetical but not entirely far-fetched because we know the Nazis were also seeking to build a nuclear weapon: Would your grandmother have believed the Germans nuking London to end the war would have been justified?

You're not wrong at all about how World War II was fought—in terms of carnage, the raids on Dresden and Tokyo were even worse—but the larger point that is being made here is that our historical memory of World War II makes key moral distinctions between what the Axis powers did and what the Allies did. But when judging the morality of an act, knowing the identities of the actors shouldn't matter. We're concerned with the action. If it was moral for the Americans to end the war by using nuclear weapons, then it would be moral for the Germans to do the same, no? If that conclusion is problematic, then it suggests that one's position is based more on tribalism—what my team does is good and what that team does is bad. Plenty of people subscribe to that position, but it's entirely unstable, subject to the whims of those in power.
I agree. I only used my Nan to emphasise that what the allies and Germans had been doing in Europe was no different. If Germany or Japan had had dropped the bomb I wouldn't consider it any more or less evil.

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