BostonBeaneater wrote:If we had nuked, say, Toronto and it only cost us Buffalo and Rochester do you think we'd be having this debate?
Leafs and Bills fans whining about playoff failures would be more limited.
only more limited...
we're gonna need a bigger bomb.
Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!
Posted: 07 Apr 2017, 9:47pm
by Dr. Medulla
Gave my last lecture of the course tonight, on World War II, which ended with a discussion of the use of nuclear weapons on Japan. I laid out the various arguments for and against that most historians have used, and closed with my own position that we are moral actors and that if we are to use morality in condemning American slavery or the Holocaust—as most do—then there is a disconnect in not applying morality to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Moreover, if you think the use of such weapons are legitimate against civilians, then you have to concede that if the Nazis had used them against the Jews, it would have been legitimate. Further yet, you're straying into the area validating the Holocaust—ends just the means. My point, I said, wasn't to take a pacifist position, but that unless you're making a tribalist argument—whatever my side does is good, whatever my enemy does is bad—these are the implications of defending military action on civilians. In all honestly, I don't think I've ever held a class' attention like that. I didn't detect any contemptuous looks in the crowd, which surprised me (there's plenty of military history students in our program).
Gave my last lecture of the course tonight, on World War II, which ended with a discussion of the use of nuclear weapons on Japan. I laid out the various arguments for and against that most historians have used, and closed with my own position that we are moral actors and that if we are to use morality in condemning American slavery or the Holocaust—as most do—then there is a disconnect in not applying morality to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Moreover, if you think the use of such weapons are legitimate against civilians, then you have to concede that if the Nazis had used them against the Jews, it would have been legitimate. Further yet, you're straying into the area validating the Holocaust—ends just the means. My point, I said, wasn't to take a pacifist position, but that unless you're making a tribalist argument—whatever my side does is good, whatever my enemy does is bad—these are the implications of defending military action on civilians. In all honestly, I don't think I've ever held a class' attention like that. I didn't detect any contemptuous looks in the crowd, which surprised me (there's plenty of military history students in our program).
Sounds pretty awesome.
Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!
Posted: 08 Apr 2017, 6:07am
by Silent Majority
Would have loved to have been there.
Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!
Posted: 08 Apr 2017, 7:30am
by Dr. Medulla
Thanks, fellers. Slight aside: I mentioned to my TA, who is a military historian, what I was going to talk about. He sniffed that he'll have to repair the damage in a future class. Um, yeah, dude, you do that. Part of his justification is that his grandfather would have been part of the invasion of mainland Japan and might have been killed if not for the atomic bombs. 200K+ dead civilians, more permanently maimed, children born with birth defects. You'd better be a fucking amazing human being to think that that trade was fair.
In fact, six of the seven five-star generals and admirals of that time believed that there was no reason to use them, that the Japanese were already defeated, knew it, and were likely to surrender before any American invasion could be launched.
etc.
Basically, conditional surrender was an option, which is what we accepted anyway, so the use of the atomic bombs to eviscerate innocent civilians was unnecessary. The Slate article makes an interesting (and questionable) point that Truman's decision to use the bomb was more about expediting the end of the war such that Soviets would gain less control over parts of Europe and Asia as well as showing off our nuclear capabilities in preparation for the impending Cold War.
Reread this whole thread today to refresh my memory on some details and totally forgot about this dude. Looks like he was a regular poster up until 2015. I don't remember him being particularly shitty elsewhere, but I may be wrong. He also never responded to my sincere response to his insincere questions which is unsurprising.
Reread this whole thread today to refresh my memory on some details and totally forgot about this dude. Looks like he was a regular poster up until 2015. I don't remember him being particularly shitty elsewhere, but I may be wrong. He also never responded to my sincere response to his insincere questions which is unsurprising.
I think I'm still mutuals with him on Twitter. If he is who i think he is, he gives me shit for liking none-first/second wave ska all the time.
Reread this whole thread today to refresh my memory on some details and totally forgot about this dude. Looks like he was a regular poster up until 2015. I don't remember him being particularly shitty elsewhere, but I may be wrong. He also never responded to my sincere response to his insincere questions which is unsurprising.
I think I'm still mutuals with him on Twitter. If he is who i think he is, he gives me shit for liking none-first/second wave ska all the time.
I was asking if he did anything shitty, not justifiable.
Re: Happy Hiroshima Day!
Posted: 09 Aug 2021, 4:09pm
by Dr. Medulla
He was kind of a strange dude in that he could be very friendly and generous—unbidden, he PM'd to share some boots with me—and then get super angry over more political things. I think he got pissed off at the Riot Grrrl claim—well, assertion of fact!—that hardcore was generally unwelcoming to women and even physically dangerous. I think he also had strong opinions on the Charlie Hebdo attack. Strange fellow.
Ohh! I know, I know! You have a private movie screening in France and invite Hitler, but then it's an ambush and Brad Pitt shoots him the head and then the hot blonde who was Anne Franke'd 10 years earlier sets the whole place on fire! To the tune of David Bowie's "Cat People", no less!
Thanks, fellers. Slight aside: I mentioned to my TA, who is a military historian, what I was going to talk about. He sniffed that he'll have to repair the damage in a future class. Um, yeah, dude, you do that. Part of his justification is that his grandfather would have been part of the invasion of mainland Japan and might have been killed if not for the atomic bombs. 200K+ dead civilians, more permanently maimed, children born with birth defects. You'd better be a fucking amazing human being to think that that trade was fair.
Atrocities committed by the allies get completely overlooked in general. Plenty of evidence that American and Soviet soldiers raped german women and children during the invasion of Germany.
Thanks, fellers. Slight aside: I mentioned to my TA, who is a military historian, what I was going to talk about. He sniffed that he'll have to repair the damage in a future class. Um, yeah, dude, you do that. Part of his justification is that his grandfather would have been part of the invasion of mainland Japan and might have been killed if not for the atomic bombs. 200K+ dead civilians, more permanently maimed, children born with birth defects. You'd better be a fucking amazing human being to think that that trade was fair.
Atrocities committed by the allies get completely overlooked in general. Plenty of evidence that American and Soviet soldiers raped german women and children during the invasion of Germany.
What happened to German civilians in the east was monstrous. The Americans, Canadians, and British weren't saints by any means, but the Russians were outright vengeful and cruel. I get it on one level, given the millions of Soviet dead, but, consistent with the arguments in this thread, civilians aren't soldiers and shouldn't be regarded as targets in any way.
Thanks, fellers. Slight aside: I mentioned to my TA, who is a military historian, what I was going to talk about. He sniffed that he'll have to repair the damage in a future class. Um, yeah, dude, you do that. Part of his justification is that his grandfather would have been part of the invasion of mainland Japan and might have been killed if not for the atomic bombs. 200K+ dead civilians, more permanently maimed, children born with birth defects. You'd better be a fucking amazing human being to think that that trade was fair.
I missed this post earlier but my mom says the same thing about my grandfather. Apparently it’s a common thought among those who fought in the Pacific.
Thanks, fellers. Slight aside: I mentioned to my TA, who is a military historian, what I was going to talk about. He sniffed that he'll have to repair the damage in a future class. Um, yeah, dude, you do that. Part of his justification is that his grandfather would have been part of the invasion of mainland Japan and might have been killed if not for the atomic bombs. 200K+ dead civilians, more permanently maimed, children born with birth defects. You'd better be a fucking amazing human being to think that that trade was fair.
I missed this post earlier but my mom says the same thing about my grandfather. Apparently it’s a common thought among those who fought in the Pacific.
I understand the sentiment. But I think of Saving Private Ryan, the epitome of Greatest Generation war flicks, where the final takeaway, as Tom Hanks is dying, he tells Matt Damon to earn it. That is, all these people have died for you, so be a good person. The same thing applies to those whose lives were hypothetically spared by the incineration and ruin of tens of thousands of civilians who, in the vast majority of cases, did nothing to deserve to die or be mutilated. They were sacrificed to save soldiers lives and at the very least deserve to be acknowledged with something more than "hey, war is war." Even if I don't expect most people to agree with my position, I do think some reflection needs to be applied to evaluating what Hiroshima and Nagasaki mean. That's what's so disappointing—the thought doesn't go beyond the immediate interests.
