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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Posted: 31 Jul 2017, 2:57pm
by Wolter
Dr. Medulla wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 2:53pm
Flex wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 2:32pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 2:16pm
Can someone explain to me the criticism about this confederacy show that's going to be on HBO? The criticism/assumption is that it'll, I guess, glamourize or make palatable the idea of slavery. But does that have to be so? Why couldn't it be a means of highlighting how much institutional racism and exploitative labour practices actually exist, to emphasize the hypocrisy of American rhetoric of freedom and equality? I assume I'm just missing something, but I'm not seeing where a show with this concept necessarily precludes critique of social reality.
I think it's mistrust that the Game of Thrones guys are doing it. They haven't evinced a very deep understanding of race or gender issues on their current show.
Ah, okay. My very superficial reading on the controversy suggested that it was the concept itself that was considered offensive, which seemed a bit odd to me. I guess kind of like the Secret Empire/Cap is a Nazi thing going on. It has the potential to be a useful critique of the corruption of American institutions and values, but the story is fucking boring.
A lot of POC have pointed out that all the lines from the racists on the show are going to end up being repurposed by shitty real world racists, who will then immediately pretend that they're just "quoting" fictional things, and it doesn't mean anything.

That and, in a operative and real sense, we already kind of live in a world where the south might as well have won, and they don't really want to see a world run by racists and slavers presented as a fiction when the reality isn't much different for many.

But this isn't my fight.

Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Posted: 31 Jul 2017, 3:05pm
by Dr. Medulla
Wolter wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 2:57pm
That and, in a operative and real sense, we already kind of live in a world where the south might as well have won, and they don't really want to see a world run by racists and slavers presented as a fiction when the reality isn't much different for many.
And that, at least on the surface, is the potential in the concept (not to say that I'm advocating)—to give lie to the reality of freedom and equality. As satire it could make pointed criticism about social reality. But it does require great care to be satire and not some kind of fantasy. Anyway, it's not something I'd be inclined to watch regardless.

Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Posted: 31 Jul 2017, 3:20pm
by Wolter
Dr. Medulla wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 3:05pm
Wolter wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 2:57pm
That and, in a operative and real sense, we already kind of live in a world where the south might as well have won, and they don't really want to see a world run by racists and slavers presented as a fiction when the reality isn't much different for many.
And that, at least on the surface, is the potential in the concept (not to say that I'm advocating)—to give lie to the reality of freedom and equality. As satire it could make pointed criticism about social reality. But it does require great care to be satire and not some kind of fantasy. Anyway, it's not something I'd be inclined to watch regardless.
As I've gotten older I've lost faith in satire's effectiveness in the population at large. It's too easy to repurpose as unironic fuel for hatred. I mean, even back in the day there were plenty of right wing assholes who thought "Kill the Poor" was sober advice.

Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Posted: 31 Jul 2017, 3:35pm
by Dr. Medulla
Wolter wrote:
31 Jul 2017, 3:20pm
As I've gotten older I've lost faith in satire's effectiveness in the population at large. It's too easy to repurpose as unironic fuel for hatred. I mean, even back in the day there were plenty of right wing assholes who thought "Kill the Poor" was sober advice.
Effective and lasting art, satire or not, is that which invites/risks diverse interpretations and applications. Stuff that's narrow and obviously didactic doesn't have a long shelf life. Strong art amps up the risks and the possibilities. On a gut level, tho, I see satire as too often being used to confirm cynicism on both sides of a given subject, but that's more a reflection, I think, of our aversion to sincerity and a certain romantic hope. But satire's also the most actively political form of art, so intellectually I can't let it go.

Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Posted: 09 Sep 2017, 10:27am
by Dr. Medulla
Very long and provocative essay by Ta-Nehisi Coates on the centrality of white racism (tho not ignoring class) in explaining Trump (and, well, American life). A lot to digest there, but it's further confirmation of Coates as one today's premier public intellectuals—someone who challenges and demands consideration.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... es/537909/

edit: And related to the above: http://www.theroot.com/study-a-picture- ... 1802753905
I have no social science background, so I can't critique the study, but it's certainly unsettling (if unsurprising).

Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Posted: 27 Sep 2017, 12:36pm
by Dr. Medulla
A short comic that captures the history of white liberals and racism: http://splinternews.com/comic-back-to-t ... 1818816203

Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Posted: 18 Oct 2017, 12:04pm
by Dr. Medulla
https://www.avclub.com/charlyne-yi-accu ... 1819648445

I have zero difficulty seeing Cross as drunk or wired on coke or something and saying exactly what Yi said he said. He is fundamentally an asshole. He can be a very funny asshole, but he's a self-righteous asshole and with inhibitions lowered I can see him going after anyone to satisfy his asshole sense of humour. And an apology that says we're both wrong—with no evidence—is a kissing cousin of saying you're wrong.

Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Posted: 18 Oct 2017, 12:07pm
by JennyB
Dr. Medulla wrote:
18 Oct 2017, 12:04pm
https://www.avclub.com/charlyne-yi-accu ... 1819648445

I have zero difficulty seeing Cross as drunk or wired on coke or something and saying exactly what Yi said he said. He is fundamentally an asshole. He can be a very funny asshole, but he's a self-righteous asshole and with inhibitions lowered I can see him going after anyone to satisfy his asshole sense of humour. And an apology that says we're both wrong—with no evidence—is a kissing cousin of saying you're wrong.
Yep. And I wasn't buying his defense of his wife, either. But I may be biased. I pretty much hate all men right now. :shifty:

Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Posted: 18 Oct 2017, 12:12pm
by Flex
JennyB wrote:
18 Oct 2017, 12:07pm
I pretty much hate all men right now. :shifty:
Image

Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Posted: 18 Oct 2017, 12:13pm
by JennyB
Flex wrote:
18 Oct 2017, 12:12pm
JennyB wrote:
18 Oct 2017, 12:07pm
I pretty much hate all men right now. :shifty:
Image
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :disshame:

Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Posted: 18 Oct 2017, 12:42pm
by Mimi
Flex wrote:
18 Oct 2017, 12:12pm
JennyB wrote:
18 Oct 2017, 12:07pm
I pretty much hate all men right now. :shifty:
Image
Heh.

Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Posted: 18 Oct 2017, 12:48pm
by Dr. Medulla
Yeah, collectively white men haven't earned any benefit of the doubt and should just accept everyone else's suspicion of their untrustworthiness.

Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Posted: 18 Oct 2017, 5:17pm
by Silent Majority
Yes, All Men.

Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Posted: 01 Nov 2017, 9:36am
by Dr. Medulla
Gotta say, I'm a bit surprised and disappointed by the historians jumping all over Kelly's claim that the Civil War was caused by a lack of compromise. Yes, of course, slavery was the root cause of Southern secession and the history of the antebellum US was a hideous series of compromises of the principle of liberty (of Africans) to assuage slaveholders. But to dismiss a failure to compromise—or to continue to compromise—means, then, that war was inevitable, either in 1861 or later on, that the differences between the regions could only be settled by blood. Arguing for inevitability is either really lazy or really political. There's a principle called the Historian's Fallacy, where historians get seduced by a conclusion that because a sequence of historical events unfolded the way they did, they had to unfold that way. That history has no off-ramps. That's just crappy historical thinking.

The other aspect that strikes me is that the failure to compromise in 1860–61 was entirely on the South. Lincoln’s election didn’t mean an end to slavery. He was clear that that he wasn't looking to free any slaves (hell, he resisted emancipation for a long time during the war). He only sought to prohibit its expansion into territories and new states, confining it to where it presently existed. He believed—and Southerners also believed—that this would mean its eventual extinction. But there was no immediate threat to slavery. It was the extremists in the South who decided that this was the make or break moment and pushed thru secession, and then, bizarrely, attacked Fort Sumter. There was no immediate reason to do so either, especially the latter given that Lincoln had no intention of forcing the South back into the fold, nor did many Northerners. The South fired the first shot and the North responded because it was seen as an attack on the North. (For most Northerners, emancipation wasn't out of some concern for African slaves; it was punishment of the South for its crimes against white Northerners.) So, the lack of a calmer, more compromising mentality in the South could be seen as causing the war.

This isn't to say that I think this is what Kelly was talking about—his other, um, dubious comments about historical thinking and Lee tell me he's going the racist route of the Civil War being a white tragedy—but dismissing compromise out of hand as ludicrous seems more than a bit of an over-reaction rooted in present politics.

Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.

Posted: 01 Nov 2017, 11:17am
by Spiff
Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Nov 2017, 9:36am
This isn't to say that I think this is what Kelly was talking about—his other, um, dubious comments about historical thinking and Lee tell me he's going the racist route of the Civil War being a white tragedy—but dismissing compromise out of hand as ludicrous seems more than a bit of an over-reaction rooted in present politics.
All good points, but your last paragraph that I've quoted above tells me that I've made the correct judgement of Kelly when I assert that the "compromise" that Kelly was referring to ain't the kind of compromise that you were referring to.

He's a racist making a racist judgement.