Those are also factors, but I think what Wolt and I are getting at is how academia is where people in the US get exposed to left ideas... and academia's version of the left is a horribly distorted little death dwarf.Dr. Medulla wrote:Just to move the conversation forward—I don't really have a dog in this fight—is it fair to blame academics? Aren't there other culprits? The seduction of a consumer culture that props up the current economic system? Politics and education that push distracting cultural issues that keep the marginalized from what's really fucking them over? I'm not sure I see the ivory tower as having all that much influence anymore beyond themselves. But I could be wrong.Wolter wrote:I think we're in agreement there. Academia is killing the left just as surely as it once revived it.eumaas wrote:Well, I was exaggerating--I still call myself a leftist or that I come from the left. But this kind of jargon-laden newspeak has infected many quarters of the activist left--a lot of the SDS email I get is equally bad. Loads of trust fund lefties are shitting all over what amounts to a fairly basic doctrine. Then again a lot of them are pretty far from the concerns of classical anarchism and marxism. It's all a product of the recuperation of the left via the academy. I don't think we'll see another labor-oriented left movement for a while. With the economy in the tank even now, it's not the left that's pushing forward, it's populists.Wolter wrote:I can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Much as "National Socialism" has nothing to do with socialism, and the German Democratic Republic wasn't Democratic, what some crank spews forth as the ideal of "leftist" thought doesn't destroy the positive traditions that come from the Classical Left.
Why I don't call myself a leftist any more
Re: Why I don't call myself a leftist any more
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Re: Why I don't call myself a leftist any more
That is the best metaphor possible.eumaas wrote:academia's version of the left is a horribly distorted little death dwarf.
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Re: Why I don't call myself a leftist any more
Certainly, I agree that in academia theory has been wholly divorced (and twisted and mutilated) from practice, but I'd then ask why academia is where people get exposed to leftist ideas, whereas it's talk radio and mainstream media that pushes the agenda of big business and imperialism. Is it the academics' fault that there are no grassroots people to push and prod them into relevance? I suppose I'm only taking issue (however tentatively) with the boldness of the statement that it's academia that's killing the left.eumaas wrote:Those are also factors, but I think what Wolt and I are getting at is how academia is where people in the US get exposed to left ideas... and academia's version of the left is a horribly distorted little death dwarf.
"Ain't no party like an S Club party!'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
Re: Why I don't call myself a leftist any more
The academic left is like that guy in the Twin Peaks dream sequences minus the awesome.Wolter wrote:That is the best metaphor possible.eumaas wrote:academia's version of the left is a horribly distorted little death dwarf.
[youtube][/youtube]
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
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Re: Why I don't call myself a leftist any more
He'd be singing Engelbert Humperdinck.eumaas wrote:The academic left is like that guy in the Twin Peaks dream sequences minus the awesome.Wolter wrote:That is the best metaphor possible.eumaas wrote:academia's version of the left is a horribly distorted little death dwarf.
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Re: Why I don't call myself a leftist any more
I believe I said MANY THINGS are killing the left, captain tenacity...Dr. Medulla wrote:Certainly, I agree that in academia theory has been wholly divorced (and twisted and mutilated) from practice, but I'd then ask why academia is where people get exposed to leftist ideas, whereas it's talk radio and mainstream media that pushes the agenda of big business and imperialism. Is it the academics' fault that there are no grassroots people to push and prod them into relevance? I suppose I'm only taking issue (however tentatively) with the boldness of the statement that it's academia that's killing the left.eumaas wrote:Those are also factors, but I think what Wolt and I are getting at is how academia is where people in the US get exposed to left ideas... and academia's version of the left is a horribly distorted little death dwarf.
Academia is one of them.
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Re: Why I don't call myself a leftist any more
Well, I don't know—that's not how it came off (to me, that is):Wolter wrote:I believe I said MANY THINGS are killing the left, captain tenacity...
Academia is one of them.
eumaas wrote:But this kind of jargon-laden newspeak has infected many quarters of the activist left--a lot of the SDS email I get is equally bad. Loads of trust fund lefties are shitting all over what amounts to a fairly basic doctrine. Then again a lot of them are pretty far from the concerns of classical anarchism and marxism. It's all a product of the recuperation of the left via the academy. I don't think we'll see another labor-oriented left movement for a while. With the economy in the tank even now, it's not the left that's pushing forward, it's populists.
Yes, you both backed off some by saying that academia isn't solely to blame, but the initial statements seemed to attribute the lion's share of guilt. I'm just not sure that academia is an active malignancy so much as it's negligent and is speaking only to itself.Wolter wrote:I think we're in agreement there. Academia is killing the left just as surely as it once revived it.
"Ain't no party like an S Club party!'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
Re: Why I don't call myself a leftist any more
The bolded text is referring to the statements before it (underlined).Dr. Medulla wrote:eumaas wrote:But this kind of jargon-laden newspeak has infected many quarters of the activist left--a lot of the SDS email I get is equally bad. Loads of trust fund lefties are shitting all over what amounts to a fairly basic doctrine. Then again a lot of them are pretty far from the concerns of classical anarchism and marxism. It's all a product of the recuperation of the left via the academy. I don't think we'll see another labor-oriented left movement for a while. With the economy in the tank even now, it's not the left that's pushing forward, it's populists.
EDIT: broadened
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
— Morton Feldman
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— Clashy
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Re: Why I don't call myself a leftist any more
I'm not seeing your point. Your underlined statement is a product of the bolded one—i.e., it's a product of the academy. Does this mean that you maintain that the primary blame goes to academia?eumaas wrote:The bolded text is referring to the statement before it (underlined).Dr. Medulla wrote:eumaas wrote:But this kind of jargon-laden newspeak has infected many quarters of the activist left--a lot of the SDS email I get is equally bad. Loads of trust fund lefties are shitting all over what amounts to a fairly basic doctrine. Then again a lot of them are pretty far from the concerns of classical anarchism and marxism. It's all a product of the recuperation of the left via the academy. I don't think we'll see another labor-oriented left movement for a while. With the economy in the tank even now, it's not the left that's pushing forward, it's populists.
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Re: Why I don't call myself a leftist any more
I did clarify it on the second comment though, so you can let go of the sock, Rover.Dr. Medulla wrote:Well, I don't know—that's not how it came off (to me, that is):Wolter wrote:I believe I said MANY THINGS are killing the left, captain tenacity...
Academia is one of them.
eumaas wrote:But this kind of jargon-laden newspeak has infected many quarters of the activist left--a lot of the SDS email I get is equally bad. Loads of trust fund lefties are shitting all over what amounts to a fairly basic doctrine. Then again a lot of them are pretty far from the concerns of classical anarchism and marxism. It's all a product of the recuperation of the left via the academy. I don't think we'll see another labor-oriented left movement for a while. With the economy in the tank even now, it's not the left that's pushing forward, it's populists.Yes, you both backed off some by saying that academia isn't solely to blame, but the initial statements seemed to attribute the lion's share of guilt. I'm just not sure that academia is an active malignancy so much as it's negligent and is speaking only to itself.Wolter wrote:I think we're in agreement there. Academia is killing the left just as surely as it once revived it.
”INDER LOCK THE THE KISS THREAD IVE REALISED IM A PRZE IDOOT” - Thomas Jefferson
"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"
"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"
Re: Why I don't call myself a leftist any more
For the activist left, yes. Most activists are heavily influenced by the academic version of leftism.Dr. Medulla wrote:I'm not seeing your point. Your underlined statement is a product of the bolded one—i.e., it's a product of the academy. Does this mean that you maintain that the primary blame goes to academia?eumaas wrote:The bolded text is referring to the statement before it (underlined).Dr. Medulla wrote:eumaas wrote:But this kind of jargon-laden newspeak has infected many quarters of the activist left--a lot of the SDS email I get is equally bad. Loads of trust fund lefties are shitting all over what amounts to a fairly basic doctrine. Then again a lot of them are pretty far from the concerns of classical anarchism and marxism. It's all a product of the recuperation of the left via the academy. I don't think we'll see another labor-oriented left movement for a while. With the economy in the tank even now, it's not the left that's pushing forward, it's populists.
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
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Re: Why I don't call myself a leftist any more
Fair enough. I was initially responding to what I saw was an overly broad statement.Wolter wrote:I did clarify it on the second comment though, so you can let go of the sock, Rover.Dr. Medulla wrote:Well, I don't know—that's not how it came off (to me, that is):Wolter wrote:I believe I said MANY THINGS are killing the left, captain tenacity...
Academia is one of them.
eumaas wrote:But this kind of jargon-laden newspeak has infected many quarters of the activist left--a lot of the SDS email I get is equally bad. Loads of trust fund lefties are shitting all over what amounts to a fairly basic doctrine. Then again a lot of them are pretty far from the concerns of classical anarchism and marxism. It's all a product of the recuperation of the left via the academy. I don't think we'll see another labor-oriented left movement for a while. With the economy in the tank even now, it's not the left that's pushing forward, it's populists.Yes, you both backed off some by saying that academia isn't solely to blame, but the initial statements seemed to attribute the lion's share of guilt. I'm just not sure that academia is an active malignancy so much as it's negligent and is speaking only to itself.Wolter wrote:I think we're in agreement there. Academia is killing the left just as surely as it once revived it.
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Re: Why I don't call myself a leftist any more
Okay, so you do think that academia is primarily to blame. Just want to make sure I understand you. So why do activists pursue the jargon-laden version of leftism instead of something more vernacular? Or, more to the point, why isn't there a more home-grown activism borne of experience rather than academic theory? I agree with both of you completely that the academic left has dropped the ball and divorced itself from activities outside the campus walls, but that doesn't explain to me why, in that vacuum, something else hasn't come along besides nativism and crass materialism. Or is there only room for two possibilities—the academic left and the Republican right—in the American setting?eumaas wrote:For the activist left, yes. Most activists are heavily influenced by the academic version of leftism.Dr. Medulla wrote:I'm not seeing your point. Your underlined statement is a product of the bolded one—i.e., it's a product of the academy. Does this mean that you maintain that the primary blame goes to academia?
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Re: Why I don't call myself a leftist any more
That's the exact crux of the problem. The problem is that because the left has allowed itself to be painted as elitist and out of touch with the common man, the right has ALREADY filled the vacuum of populism. Until activists actually talk TO the working class, instead of ABOUT them to other activists, the Left is effectively dead in the water.Dr. Medulla wrote:Okay, so you do think that academia is primarily to blame. Just want to make sure I understand you. So why do activists pursue the jargon-laden version of leftism instead of something more vernacular? Or, more to the point, why isn't there a more home-grown activism borne of experience rather than academic theory? I agree with both of you completely that the academic left has dropped the ball and divorced itself from activities outside the campus walls, but that doesn't explain to me why, in that vacuum, something else hasn't come along besides nativism and crass materialism. Or is there only room for two possibilities—the academic left and the Republican right—in the American setting?eumaas wrote:For the activist left, yes. Most activists are heavily influenced by the academic version of leftism.Dr. Medulla wrote:I'm not seeing your point. Your underlined statement is a product of the bolded one—i.e., it's a product of the academy. Does this mean that you maintain that the primary blame goes to academia?
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Re: Why I don't call myself a leftist any more
But how much of that is purely the fault of academics and how much blame resides in a media and establishment that actively works to maintain a disconnect between the two groups (the activist and the "common man")?Wolter wrote:That's the exact crux of the problem. The problem is that because the left has allowed itself to be painted as elitist and out of touch with the common man, the right has ALREADY filled the vacuum of populism. Until activists actually talk TO the working class, instead of ABOUT them to other activists, the Left is effectively dead in the water.
Obviously, the answer is both, but I wonder how much of the traits in the academic left are at least partly a response to being actively shut out of any meaningful national dialog.
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