No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

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101Walterton
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by 101Walterton » 03 Jun 2010, 3:30pm

JennyB wrote:
101Walterton wrote:I went to a book sale the other day to get books for the kids (retail price is ridiculous). Bought a huge pile of books for my son, adventures, mysteries, sports stories, monster stories, space exploration, fantasy etc etc. I bought one book for my daughter which was actually a boys book about being a greenie.
Every girls book was about boyfriends, girls falling out, family break ups and shopping malls. Disgraceful, the women that write these books should be ashamed.
I agree with you, but ont he other hand, why are mysteries, sports books, monster stories, space exploration, etc. considered boys' books in the first place? Why aren't there any boys' books about being in touch with their feelings and shit? OK, I know I sound obnoxious, but my point is, can't any of those books be considered gender-neutral?
I agree absolutely with the principle of what you say and that is my point. In relation to the books I bought and referring to them as 'boys books', it is because the characters in the books are all boys and the style, content and conversation etc.. is very much written to suit boys not girls. The one book I did buy for my daughter was one that could be called gender- neutral despite having boy characters however that was because the style and content was suitable to both.

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by JennyB » 03 Jun 2010, 6:03pm

101Walterton wrote:
JennyB wrote:
101Walterton wrote:I went to a book sale the other day to get books for the kids (retail price is ridiculous). Bought a huge pile of books for my son, adventures, mysteries, sports stories, monster stories, space exploration, fantasy etc etc. I bought one book for my daughter which was actually a boys book about being a greenie.
Every girls book was about boyfriends, girls falling out, family break ups and shopping malls. Disgraceful, the women that write these books should be ashamed.
I agree with you, but ont he other hand, why are mysteries, sports books, monster stories, space exploration, etc. considered boys' books in the first place? Why aren't there any boys' books about being in touch with their feelings and shit? OK, I know I sound obnoxious, but my point is, can't any of those books be considered gender-neutral?
I agree absolutely with the principle of what you say and that is my point. In relation to the books I bought and referring to them as 'boys books', it is because the characters in the books are all boys and the style, content and conversation etc.. is very much written to suit boys not girls. The one book I did buy for my daughter was one that could be called gender- neutral despite having boy characters however that was because the style and content was suitable to both.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by 101Walterton » 03 Jun 2010, 8:31pm

JennyB wrote:
101Walterton wrote:
JennyB wrote:
101Walterton wrote:I went to a book sale the other day to get books for the kids (retail price is ridiculous). Bought a huge pile of books for my son, adventures, mysteries, sports stories, monster stories, space exploration, fantasy etc etc. I bought one book for my daughter which was actually a boys book about being a greenie.
Every girls book was about boyfriends, girls falling out, family break ups and shopping malls. Disgraceful, the women that write these books should be ashamed.
I agree with you, but ont he other hand, why are mysteries, sports books, monster stories, space exploration, etc. considered boys' books in the first place? Why aren't there any boys' books about being in touch with their feelings and shit? OK, I know I sound obnoxious, but my point is, can't any of those books be considered gender-neutral?
I agree absolutely with the principle of what you say and that is my point. In relation to the books I bought and referring to them as 'boys books', it is because the characters in the books are all boys and the style, content and conversation etc.. is very much written to suit boys not girls. The one book I did buy for my daughter was one that could be called gender- neutral despite having boy characters however that was because the style and content was suitable to both.
Gotcha.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by matedog » 07 Jun 2010, 3:34pm

So I was tricked into seeing Sex and the City 2 this weekend. A lot of the movie rubbed me the wrong way (they go to the middle east and upset a lot of Muslims, it's pretty uncomfortable), but one thing in particular I wanted to discuss. The movie promotes "girl power" throughout and they even discuss how men are threatened by powerful women when explaining why one of the women who is lawyer was being treated poorly at her company. I am all for equality and stuff, but something didn't jive because throughout the movie, the women are pampered and treated to their every shallow desire by rich and powerful men. SJP's character gets ultra fancy apartment with a renovated walk in closet because her amazing husband said ok. Later, all the women get to go on a private jet to Abu Dhabi to stay at a $20,000/night hotel getting massages and boozed up on the bill of some incredibly wealthy sheikh.

Is this right? Or am I being sexist? Or am I just a cheap ass who freaks out at the idea of spending that much money on a wife/gf?
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by rcs » 07 Jun 2010, 3:37pm

matedog wrote:So I was tricked into seeing Sex and the City 2 this weekend.
tricked....

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Flex » 07 Jun 2010, 3:38pm

matedog wrote:So I was tricked into seeing Sex and the City 2 this weekend. A lot of the movie rubbed me the wrong way (they go to the middle east and upset a lot of Muslims, it's pretty uncomfortable), but one thing in particular I wanted to discuss. The movie promotes "girl power" throughout and they even discuss how men are threatened by powerful women when explaining why one of the women who is lawyer was being treated poorly at her company. I am all for equality and stuff, but something didn't jive because throughout the movie, the women are pampered and treated to their every shallow desire by rich and powerful men. SJP's character gets ultra fancy apartment with a renovated walk in closet because her amazing husband said ok. Later, all the women get to go on a private jet to Abu Dhabi to stay at a $20,000/night hotel getting massages and boozed up on the bill of some incredibly wealthy sheikh.

Is this right? Or am I being sexist? Or am I just a cheap ass who freaks out at the idea of spending that much money on a wife/gf?
I've read a fair share of pretty solid feminist criticism of the flick. There's a lot of creepy classism which the film translates as "girl power."
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Wolter » 07 Jun 2010, 3:39pm

I can honestly say that my limited knowledge of Sex and the City lends credence to the notion that it is in no way "Feminist."
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Dr. Medulla » 07 Jun 2010, 3:42pm

The wife watched it a lot (honestly, there are things about her that I will never understand) and my brief glimpses suggested that it was less about feminism than rich entitled women indulging every whim. I can't imagine how feminism can even remotely be defined as selfish elitism.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Flex » 07 Jun 2010, 3:44pm

Wolter wrote:I can honestly say that my limited knowledge of Sex and the City lends credence to the notion that it is in no way "Feminist."
My sister loves it (I have no idea what she thinks of the new flick), so I've seen a stray episode when I visit her. I'll say this: from what she explains as their earlier seasons, the show seemed like a relatively smart, self-aware show about relationships which used consumerism as a bit of a ploy. Now the self-awareness seems gone and it's just reveling in consumerist garbage.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by matedog » 07 Jun 2010, 3:47pm

Flex wrote:
Wolter wrote:I can honestly say that my limited knowledge of Sex and the City lends credence to the notion that it is in no way "Feminist."
My sister loves it (I have no idea what she thinks of the new flick), so I've seen a stray episode when I visit her. I'll say this: from what she explains as their earlier seasons, the show seemed like a relatively smart, self-aware show about relationships which used consumerism as a bit of a ploy. Now the self-awareness seems gone and it's just reveling in consumerist garbage.
I have seen an occasional episode back in the day and I remember it being insightful at least in terms of understanding the relationship aspect (as opposed to the consumerism and shit) of women a bit better. But my exposure was limited and I guess it has gotten much worse with these movies.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by JennyB » 07 Jun 2010, 3:53pm

matedog wrote:
Flex wrote:
Wolter wrote:I can honestly say that my limited knowledge of Sex and the City lends credence to the notion that it is in no way "Feminist."
My sister loves it (I have no idea what she thinks of the new flick), so I've seen a stray episode when I visit her. I'll say this: from what she explains as their earlier seasons, the show seemed like a relatively smart, self-aware show about relationships which used consumerism as a bit of a ploy. Now the self-awareness seems gone and it's just reveling in consumerist garbage.
I have seen an occasional episode back in the day and I remember it being insightful at least in terms of understanding the relationship aspect (as opposed to the consumerism and shit) of women a bit better. But my exposure was limited and I guess it has gotten much worse with these movies.
What both of you said is exactly right. And there is a racism aspect of it that has always bothered me. The only person of color to penetrate the inner circle was in the first movie, and she was one of the main character's Sassy Black (tm) assistant. They sort of treat gay men as their cute pets, too.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Wolter » 07 Jun 2010, 3:55pm

JennyB wrote: They sort of treat gay men as their cute pets, too.
I noticed this on the one full episode I saw.

The "Sassy Gay Friend" meme needs to go extinct. It does no good to anyone.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by 101Walterton » 07 Jun 2010, 3:58pm

matedog wrote:So I was tricked into seeing Sex and the City 2 this weekend. A lot of the movie rubbed me the wrong way (they go to the middle east and upset a lot of Muslims, it's pretty uncomfortable), but one thing in particular I wanted to discuss. The movie promotes "girl power" throughout and they even discuss how men are threatened by powerful women when explaining why one of the women who is lawyer was being treated poorly at her company. I am all for equality and stuff, but something didn't jive because throughout the movie, the women are pampered and treated to their every shallow desire by rich and powerful men. SJP's character gets ultra fancy apartment with a renovated walk in closet because her amazing husband said ok. Later, all the women get to go on a private jet to Abu Dhabi to stay at a $20,000/night hotel getting massages and boozed up on the bill of some incredibly wealthy sheikh.

Is this right? Or am I being sexist? Or am I just a cheap ass who freaks out at the idea of spending that much money on a wife/gf?
I used to laugh about the Spice Girls in the same way. Hand picked by men to sing songs written by men whilst dressed in clothes styled by men to sell records for companies run by men. Girl Power ?

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Dr. Medulla » 07 Jun 2010, 3:58pm

Wolter wrote:
JennyB wrote: They sort of treat gay men as their cute pets, too.
I noticed this on the one full episode I saw.

The "Sassy Gay Friend" meme needs to go extinct. It does no good to anyone.
Sarah Silverman touches on this somewhat in her book, mentioning that Steve and Brian are unlike any other gay couple on tv in that they're basically a couple high school guys who also happen to be gay. As she said, apart from them being gay, their characters were the show's target demographic.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Wolter » 07 Jun 2010, 3:59pm

101Walterton wrote:
matedog wrote:So I was tricked into seeing Sex and the City 2 this weekend. A lot of the movie rubbed me the wrong way (they go to the middle east and upset a lot of Muslims, it's pretty uncomfortable), but one thing in particular I wanted to discuss. The movie promotes "girl power" throughout and they even discuss how men are threatened by powerful women when explaining why one of the women who is lawyer was being treated poorly at her company. I am all for equality and stuff, but something didn't jive because throughout the movie, the women are pampered and treated to their every shallow desire by rich and powerful men. SJP's character gets ultra fancy apartment with a renovated walk in closet because her amazing husband said ok. Later, all the women get to go on a private jet to Abu Dhabi to stay at a $20,000/night hotel getting massages and boozed up on the bill of some incredibly wealthy sheikh.

Is this right? Or am I being sexist? Or am I just a cheap ass who freaks out at the idea of spending that much money on a wife/gf?
I used to laugh about the Spice Girls in the same way. Hand picked by men to sing songs written by men whilst dressed in clothes styled by men to sell records for companies run by men. Girl Power ?
That was actually part of my odd fascination with them. The marketing vs. the reality.
"There's something more honest, he believed, about traditional methods of mass starvation, labour camps, and machine gunning millions to death. Stalin was a vinyl guy who sneered at Truman converting everything to compact disc." - Thomas Jefferson

"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"

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