If Music Could Talk

matedog wrote:There is an argument made that "why are men held accountable for their actions when drunk and women aren't?" Perhaps a better mentality would be if a woman drinking makes her more likely to be a victim of rape, then a man drinking makes him more likely to commit rape. I don't think this is ever really stated.

It comes down to a long-standing belief that women are the protectors of sexual propriety. It is their duty to steer sexual relations to only sanctioned sites (traditionally marriage, but now just monogamous relationships), and so when that doesn't happen it's her fault. So they're sluts or they fucked up by getting drunk. Her moral lapse allowed the man to fail, but responsibility falls upon her. It's a myth that is very slow to die.

eumaas wrote:but now that Clinton has the nom, the patriarchy is over.

I never would have thought I'd live to see the end of the patriarchy and racism, and yet in an eight-year period we reached the mountain top.

Dr. Medulla wrote:

matedog wrote:There is an argument made that "why are men held accountable for their actions when drunk and women aren't?" Perhaps a better mentality would be if a woman drinking makes her more likely to be a victim of rape, then a man drinking makes him more likely to commit rape. I don't think this is ever really stated.

It comes down to a long-standing belief that women are the protectors of sexual propriety. It is their duty to steer sexual relations to only sanctioned sites (traditionally marriage, but now just monogamous relationships), and so when that doesn't happen it's her fault. So they're sluts or they fucked up by getting drunk. Her moral lapse allowed the man to fail, but responsibility falls upon her. It's a myth that is very slow to die.

I guess it's less clear to me why it's socially more acceptable to victim blame someone for walking around the ghetto at night on their cellphone and they happen to get mugged vs.girl gets drunk at a frat house and gets raped. Even if I hear about someone getting mugged as described above, I think, "boy that was dumb." Am I an asshole for victim blaming mugging victims? Or am I an asshole for equating mugging victims with rape victims?

matedog wrote:I guess it's less clear to me why it's socially more acceptable to victim blame someone for walking around the ghetto at night on their cellphone and they happen to get mugged vs.girl gets drunk at a frat house and gets raped. Even if I hear about someone getting mugged as described above, I think, "boy that was dumb." Am I an asshole for victim blaming mugging victims? Or am I an asshole for equating mugging victims with rape victims?

No, you do have a point. I remember when that celebrity phone hack thing happened with all those nudies posted and there was victim blaming going on, but it was more in a slut shaming kind of way. My attitude was, yeah, these people were victims of a crime, definitely, but they also did themselves no favours by having those photos in a cloud and/or having weak passwords, not making it easy for a determined hacker do get those photos. Their status as celebrities made them a target, so good sense suggested taking extra precautions. If I lock and park my car overnight on a poorly lit street with a laptop on the front seat, I'll be able to file an insurance claim when the window is smashed and the laptop is stolen, but it's sensible to ask me why I didn't take better precautions—that is, I facilitated getting robbed.

So, yeah, getting black-out drunk doesn't mean losing your legal rights as a victim—no free consent means it's rape—but, male or female, you're surrendering your ability to resist or defend yourself, whether it's getting raped or just having swear words written on your face while you're passed out. Whenever you get fucked up, you're gambling a bit, depending on where you are, who you're with, and how much you're drinking, smoking, or injecting, because you're willingly compromising your autonomy. It's definitely an uncomfortable grey area socially because nobody deserves to be raped because they overindulged, but it's difficult to completely ignore the choices and circumstances beforehand.

Dr. Medulla wrote:

eumaas wrote:but now that Clinton has the nom, the patriarchy is over.

I never would have thought I'd live to see the end of the patriarchy and racism, and yet in an eight-year period we reached the mountain top.

eumaas wrote:

Dr. Medulla wrote:

eumaas wrote:but now that Clinton has the nom, the patriarchy is over.

I never would have thought I'd live to see the end of the patriarchy and racism, and yet in an eight-year period we reached the mountain top.

Back when we were in NC, there was a small grad student conference. One paper presented was on Palestinian women in Israel, and the author, a young black woman, argued that these women, for the most part, placed their Palestinian identity above that of being female because they regarded it as the greater urgency, and that this was a legitimate stance. Ho-lee shit, she had a strip ripped off her by a couple white, female academics for suggesting that not embracing feminism was not some kind of sell out to the patriarchy. It was so fucking uncomfortable for so many reasons, but also so obvious what blinders these academics wore, oblivious to the circumstances in which their narrow conception of feminism existed. Taking the local and imposing it as universal and getting angry at those who point out the problems.

Dr. Medulla wrote:

matedog wrote:I guess it's less clear to me why it's socially more acceptable to victim blame someone for walking around the ghetto at night on their cellphone and they happen to get mugged vs.girl gets drunk at a frat house and gets raped. Even if I hear about someone getting mugged as described above, I think, "boy that was dumb." Am I an asshole for victim blaming mugging victims? Or am I an asshole for equating mugging victims with rape victims?

No, you do have a point. I remember when that celebrity phone hack thing happened with all those nudies posted and there was victim blaming going on, but it was more in a slut shaming kind of way. My attitude was, yeah, these people were victims of a crime, definitely, but they also did themselves no favours by having those photos in a cloud and/or having weak passwords, not making it easy for a determined hacker do get those photos. Their status as celebrities made them a target, so good sense suggested taking extra precautions. If I lock and park my car overnight on a poorly lit street with a laptop on the front seat, I'll be able to file an insurance claim when the window is smashed and the laptop is stolen, but it's sensible to ask me why I didn't take better precautions—that is, I facilitated getting robbed.

So, yeah, getting black-out drunk doesn't mean losing your legal rights as a victim—no free consent means it's rape—but, male or female, you're surrendering your ability to resist or defend yourself, whether it's getting raped or just having swear words written on your face while you're passed out. Whenever you get fucked up, you're gambling a bit, depending on where you are, who you're with, and how much you're drinking, smoking, or injecting, because you're willingly compromising your autonomy. It's definitely an uncomfortable grey area socially because nobody deserves to be raped because they overindulged, but it's difficult to completely ignore the choices and circumstances beforehand.

I feel bad thinking that because any sense of placing blame on a rape victim is understandably taboo.

I don't want to dwell on that though, I think 100% of societal changes on the rape issue need to be made by men. Most average men know that the "hold down a screaming woman" type of rape is wrong. There seems to be a rise in awareness of (not a rise in occurrence, mind you) of the "we were both drunk, I thought she was into it" type of rape which is understandably a bit more ambiguous. I think two main things to teach men are what I said above regarding alcohol intake could raise your risk of having sex with a girl without her full consent as well as understand that (I'm generalizing a hell of a lot) women usually have a different approach to sex than men. My personal experience is that movies that show men going to college and getting laid at frat parties (even this year's "Everybody Wants Some!" by the usually thoughtful Richard Linklater) with women who are totally down for random sex aren't the norm. Yet boys/men are raised thinking that women approach sex similarly to men and that drunken hook ups at parties are always awesome. Anyway, I'm rambling, but I think you get the point.

eumaas wrote:

Dr. Medulla wrote:

eumaas wrote:but now that Clinton has the nom, the patriarchy is over.

I never would have thought I'd live to see the end of the patriarchy and racism, and yet in an eight-year period we reached the mountain top.

Hilary will be a great step forward for rich, straight, white women. I guess that's better than nothing?

matedog wrote:I don't want to dwell on that though, I think 100% of societal changes on the rape issue need to be made by men. Most average men know that the "hold down a screaming woman" type of rape is wrong. There seems to be a rise in awareness of (not a rise in occurrence, mind you) of the "we were both drunk, I thought she was into it" type of rape which is understandably a bit more ambiguous. I think two main things to teach men are what I said above regarding alcohol intake could raise your risk of having sex with a girl without her full consent as well as understand that (I'm generalizing a hell of a lot) women usually have a different approach to sex than men. My personal experience is that movies that show men going to college and getting laid at frat parties (even this year's "Everybody Wants Some!" by the usually thoughtful Richard Linklater) with women who are totally down for random sex aren't the norm. Yet boys/men are raised thinking that women approach sex similarly to men and that drunken hook ups at parties are always awesome. Anyway, I'm rambling, but I think you get the point.

You're completely right in that boys have to be raised better and not realize that they are entitled to women or sex. It's not resource acquisition, it's not military adventure in another form. As long as sex is predicated on uneven power relationships—i.e., male privilege—it establishes a terrain that, if not encourages then forgives that kind of presumption. But that involves a whole web of structures and ideology, so at the very least hammer home the awareness of the privilege and the importance of not giving in to it.

Who says that Republicans can't be Progressives? http://politicops.com/arizona-republica ... od-stamps/

A+, Viv. This is awesome:

http://www.nme.com/news/the-slits/95068

JennyB wrote:A+, Viv. This is awesome:

http://www.nme.com/news/the-slits/95068

I read that the other day. Yep, no sexism in punk. (Yes, it was more open than other genres, but let's not get carried away and think that it wasn't—and isn't—still male-dominated.)

Dr. Medulla wrote:

JennyB wrote:A+, Viv. This is awesome:

http://www.nme.com/news/the-slits/95068

I read that the other day. Yep, no sexism in punk. (Yes, it was more open than other genres, but let's not get carried away and think that it wasn't—and isn't—still male-dominated.)

Tell me about it.

Thread title has reached maximum accuracy: http://theslot.jezebel.com/poll-majorit ... 1785501690

If you get a chance to see last night's Daily Show segment where Klepper was interviewing Trump rally attendees, it was hilarious. A fatfuck badmouthing Muslims because they don't treat women with respect, while wearing a T-Shirt that had a crude Monica Lewinski joke on it.