Happy Fourth of July

Politics and other such topical creams.
101Walterton
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Re: Happy Fourth of July

Post by 101Walterton » 24 Jul 2008, 9:45pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
101Walterton wrote:I was referring to the legalising of possession / usage but not manufacture etc..I thought you meant it should be legal to do what you want in your own home however was pointing out that in order to do so many others have performed illegal acts on your behalf. You want full state manufacture and distrubution ? That will be taxed, manufacturers licensed, production governed by Health and Safety Food Hygene legislation...it all costs and this cost is passed on. There is always someone who will do it cheaper therefore you end up with legal and illegal drug trade as per prostitution.
Not necessarily—is this there a huge black market for alcohol and tobacco? The widespread availability—the convenience factor—of legal booze and cigarettes seems to trump cheaper black market alternatives.
For every coffee shop in Amsterdam legally (or decriminally or whichever way they put it) there are 10 dealers selling cheaper.

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Re: Happy Fourth of July

Post by Dr. Medulla » 24 Jul 2008, 10:07pm

101Walterton wrote:
Dr. Medulla wrote:
101Walterton wrote:I was referring to the legalising of possession / usage but not manufacture etc..I thought you meant it should be legal to do what you want in your own home however was pointing out that in order to do so many others have performed illegal acts on your behalf. You want full state manufacture and distrubution ? That will be taxed, manufacturers licensed, production governed by Health and Safety Food Hygene legislation...it all costs and this cost is passed on. There is always someone who will do it cheaper therefore you end up with legal and illegal drug trade as per prostitution.
Not necessarily—is this there a huge black market for alcohol and tobacco? The widespread availability—the convenience factor—of legal booze and cigarettes seems to trump cheaper black market alternatives.
For every coffee shop in Amsterdam legally (or decriminally or whichever way they put it) there are 10 dealers selling cheaper.
The question to figure out, then, is why do most people buy alcohol and tobacco that has the stamp of authority but hash from non-authorized sellers? It can't be the substances themselves. My initial hunch would be related to production and distribution costs, which would presumably become cheaper as already established methods and networks are applied across the board to other substances. That's just by guess, tho, as I haven't read a whole lot of economics.
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I feel that, had he lived, John Lennon would have loved Donkey Kong.

101Walterton
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Re: Happy Fourth of July

Post by 101Walterton » 24 Jul 2008, 10:14pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
101Walterton wrote:
Dr. Medulla wrote:
101Walterton wrote:I was referring to the legalising of possession / usage but not manufacture etc..I thought you meant it should be legal to do what you want in your own home however was pointing out that in order to do so many others have performed illegal acts on your behalf. You want full state manufacture and distrubution ? That will be taxed, manufacturers licensed, production governed by Health and Safety Food Hygene legislation...it all costs and this cost is passed on. There is always someone who will do it cheaper therefore you end up with legal and illegal drug trade as per prostitution.
Not necessarily—is this there a huge black market for alcohol and tobacco? The widespread availability—the convenience factor—of legal booze and cigarettes seems to trump cheaper black market alternatives.
For every coffee shop in Amsterdam legally (or decriminally or whichever way they put it) there are 10 dealers selling cheaper.
The question to figure out, then, is why do most people buy alcohol and tobacco that has the stamp of authority but hash from non-authorized sellers? It can't be the substances themselves. My initial hunch would be related to production and distribution costs, which would presumably become cheaper as already established methods and networks are applied across the board to other substances. That's just by guess, tho, as I haven't read a whole lot of economics.
I've never come across or even seen non authorised tobacco. As for alcohol I presume that it is because any illegal "moonshine' or whatever you call it tastes like shit although some people will still buy it. In the UK people will drive to France to buy cheaper beer.
There are a number of reasons why you would buy hash illegally when legal is available firstly price. Coffee shops have overheads and taxes to pay ? Dealers may have stronger gear which does not affect taste like alcohol ?

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Re: Happy Fourth of July

Post by Dr. Medulla » 24 Jul 2008, 10:27pm

101Walterton wrote:
Dr. Medulla wrote:
101Walterton wrote:
Dr. Medulla wrote:
101Walterton wrote:I was referring to the legalising of possession / usage but not manufacture etc..I thought you meant it should be legal to do what you want in your own home however was pointing out that in order to do so many others have performed illegal acts on your behalf. You want full state manufacture and distrubution ? That will be taxed, manufacturers licensed, production governed by Health and Safety Food Hygene legislation...it all costs and this cost is passed on. There is always someone who will do it cheaper therefore you end up with legal and illegal drug trade as per prostitution.
Not necessarily—is this there a huge black market for alcohol and tobacco? The widespread availability—the convenience factor—of legal booze and cigarettes seems to trump cheaper black market alternatives.
For every coffee shop in Amsterdam legally (or decriminally or whichever way they put it) there are 10 dealers selling cheaper.
The question to figure out, then, is why do most people buy alcohol and tobacco that has the stamp of authority but hash from non-authorized sellers? It can't be the substances themselves. My initial hunch would be related to production and distribution costs, which would presumably become cheaper as already established methods and networks are applied across the board to other substances. That's just by guess, tho, as I haven't read a whole lot of economics.
I've never come across or even seen non authorised tobacco. As for alcohol I presume that it is because any illegal "moonshine' or whatever you call it tastes like shit although some people will still buy it. In the UK people will drive to France to buy cheaper beer.
There are a number of reasons why you would buy hash illegally when legal is available firstly price. Coffee shops have overheads and taxes to pay ? Dealers may have stronger gear which does not affect taste like alcohol ?
An interesting question, and definitely something I haven't thought about much. Do some substances encourage more solitary than social use? Are there some that merchants wouldn't want to provide space for their use? If the answer is no to both, it seems to me that any other product that fucks you up could go the route of alcohol in terms of marketability and price, thereby limiting the appeal of illegal product.
Endut! Hoch Hech!

I feel that, had he lived, John Lennon would have loved Donkey Kong.

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Re: Happy Fourth of July

Post by 101Walterton » 24 Jul 2008, 10:35pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
101Walterton wrote:
Dr. Medulla wrote:
101Walterton wrote:
Dr. Medulla wrote: Not necessarily—is this there a huge black market for alcohol and tobacco? The widespread availability—the convenience factor—of legal booze and cigarettes seems to trump cheaper black market alternatives.
For every coffee shop in Amsterdam legally (or decriminally or whichever way they put it) there are 10 dealers selling cheaper.
The question to figure out, then, is why do most people buy alcohol and tobacco that has the stamp of authority but hash from non-authorized sellers? It can't be the substances themselves. My initial hunch would be related to production and distribution costs, which would presumably become cheaper as already established methods and networks are applied across the board to other substances. That's just by guess, tho, as I haven't read a whole lot of economics.
I've never come across or even seen non authorised tobacco. As for alcohol I presume that it is because any illegal "moonshine' or whatever you call it tastes like shit although some people will still buy it. In the UK people will drive to France to buy cheaper beer.
There are a number of reasons why you would buy hash illegally when legal is available firstly price. Coffee shops have overheads and taxes to pay ? Dealers may have stronger gear which does not affect taste like alcohol ?
An interesting question, and definitely something I haven't thought about much. Do some substances encourage more solitary than social use? Are there some that merchants wouldn't want to provide space for their use? If the answer is no to both, it seems to me that any other product that fucks you up could go the route of alcohol in terms of marketability and price, thereby limiting the appeal of illegal product.
Either way the dealer is cheaper. Small home hydroponic system can produce gear of any strength that is of equal taste / quality however the same cannot be said for moonshine / home brew (especially dodgy Shiraz).

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Re: Happy Fourth of July

Post by Flex » 24 Jul 2008, 10:40pm

"If drugs are outlawed only outlaws will be... heroin" :shifty:
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Re: Happy Fourth of July

Post by Flex » 24 Jul 2008, 10:43pm

Also, what the hell does it matter if a black market remains even after x drug is legalized? That just means people who are getting x drug legally won't get tossed in the slammer. Then it's less egregious to crack down on people buying illegally - because a legal option exists. I don't really get how this is an argument against legalization. Just because some problems will remain we should just completely forgo creating a legal option to buy drugs?

Because some people will still buy dvds on the black market, we should ban all dvds.
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Re: Happy Fourth of July

Post by Flex » 24 Jul 2008, 10:51pm

One more point. Let's not forget:
Contrary to the traditional, adamant position of school and government officials, drugs have recently been found to be, in fact, cool. Rumors to this effect have been circulating lately, but it was not until a comprehensive study of high school students, the authorities on coolness, was completed that it was confirmed. Not only were drugs found to be cool in their own right, but it became apparent that one can become cool by taking them, a procedure known to inside sources as "doing them."
These explosive findings in their entirety: http://www.disconnect.net/underground/a ... ugs09.html
"I live inside my own heart, Matt Damon." - Prince

Sous les pavés, la plage.

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Re: Happy Fourth of July

Post by 101Walterton » 24 Jul 2008, 10:56pm

Flex wrote:Also, what the hell does it matter if a black market remains even after x drug is legalized? That just means people who are getting x drug legally won't get tossed in the slammer. Then it's less egregious to crack down on people buying illegally - because a legal option exists. I don't really get how this is an argument against legalization. Just because some problems will remain we should just completely forgo creating a legal option to buy drugs?

Because some people will still buy dvds on the black market, we should ban all dvds.
The issue was raised that if drugs were legalised it would take it out of the hands of the mob I was merely arguing that that wouldnt be the case.
Flex are you for total legalisation of all drugs ?

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Re: Happy Fourth of July

Post by Dr. Medulla » 24 Jul 2008, 11:02pm

101Walterton wrote:Either way the dealer is cheaper. Small home hydroponic system can produce gear of any strength that is of equal taste / quality
Isn't this comparable to big breweries versus micro-brews? Yeah, the latter is a better quality, but tends to be more expensive. So it becomes a matter of how much a person is willing to compromise on quality before the cash savings aren't worth it? A big ass corporate weed farm might not produce as high a quality, but it could certainly do it cheaper.
however the same cannot be said for moonshine / home brew (especially dodgy Shiraz).
:naughty: You're on my list …

p.s. Flex makes a simple and sensible point about black markets and their irrelevancy as to the legalization question. It's why I'll be naming my next condor after him.
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I feel that, had he lived, John Lennon would have loved Donkey Kong.

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Re: Happy Fourth of July

Post by 101Walterton » 24 Jul 2008, 11:12pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
101Walterton wrote:Either way the dealer is cheaper. Small home hydroponic system can produce gear of any strength that is of equal taste / quality
Isn't this comparable to big breweries versus micro-brews? Yeah, the latter is a better quality, but tends to be more expensive. So it becomes a matter of how much a person is willing to compromise on quality before the cash savings aren't worth it? A big ass corporate weed farm might not produce as high a quality, but it could certainly do it cheaper.
however the same cannot be said for moonshine / home brew (especially dodgy Shiraz).
:naughty: You're on my list …

p.s. Flex makes a simple and sensible point about black markets and their irrelevancy as to the legalization question. It's why I'll be naming my next condor after him.
One man and his greenhouse is hardly the same as a micro brewery. Have you ever seen someone outside a pub knocking out beer from his micro brewery ??
I can see the merits for legalising cannabis however my biggest beef with legalisation of drugs is that if you legalise one dont you have to legalise them all ?? Availablity does lead to increase use and a tendency to move to harder drugs. You legalise cannabis or any drugs you increase the number of people / amount of use to detrimental affect.

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Re: Happy Fourth of July

Post by Dr. Medulla » 24 Jul 2008, 11:32pm

101Walterton wrote:One man and his greenhouse is hardly the same as a micro brewery. Have you ever seen someone outside a pub knocking out beer from his micro brewery ??
Same principle, tho—big and cheap (price and quality); small and better quality but higher price.
I can see the merits for legalising cannabis however my biggest beef with legalisation of drugs is that if you legalise one dont you have to legalise them all ?? Availablity does lead to increase use and a tendency to move to harder drugs. You legalise cannabis or any drugs you increase the number of people / amount of use to detrimental affect.
I doubt this because I have considerable doubts that those who don't use illegal drugs now have made that choice chiefly because of their illegality. Pretty much everything is available to anyone who wants to try it. Too many other factors dominate whether a person smokes, drinks, eats,or injects. Even if heroin was made legal, for example, there's no way I'd touch it. The great upside of all this is that those who do develop crippling addictions can more easily seek treatment rather than go straight to jail. Vancouver, for example, has had some success with its controversial safe injection sites, where health care workers and addictions specialists are present to prevent OD's and to help those who want treatment get into a rehab program. Much more sensible than declaring a medical condition a criminal manner and punting them to a cell.
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Re: Happy Fourth of July

Post by 101Walterton » 24 Jul 2008, 11:53pm

"Same principle, tho—big and cheap (price and quality); small and better quality but higher price."

Thats my point with cannabis its not neccesarily the case.

"I doubt this because I have considerable doubts that those who don't use illegal drugs now have made that choice chiefly because of their illegality. Pretty much everything is available to anyone who wants to try it."

Yep there are those that will always use it and its not hard to find but if you could buy it in the pub and use it are you telling me more people wwouldnt use ? or if it was on sale in the offy by the peanuts people wouldnt grab a bag on the spur of the moment ? At the moment if you want it you usually have to go get it plus you are restricted as to where you can use it. Believe it or not there are some who adhere to the law. Im not talking about regular users but the masses who are part time or not even that.

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Re: Happy Fourth of July

Post by 101Walterton » 24 Jul 2008, 11:59pm

Fuck it, all this has made me thirsty, its only 4pm but I am going to have my drug of choice and crack open my first Steinlager Pure of the weekend. And to quote Harvey Keitel from the ad "its good to know you New Zealanders take a stance where it counts" !!!!!.

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Re: Happy Fourth of July

Post by Dr. Medulla » 25 Jul 2008, 9:19am

101Walterton wrote:Yep there are those that will always use it and its not hard to find but if you could buy it in the pub and use it are you telling me more people wwouldnt use ? or if it was on sale in the offy by the peanuts people wouldnt grab a bag on the spur of the moment ?
People are capable of walking by a pub and not getting blind drunk or even choose not to drink at all. Cigarettes are available at any convenience store and I've never bought a pack. Easy availability isn't the sole determinant of purchase and use.
At the moment if you want it you usually have to go get it plus you are restricted as to where you can use it. Believe it or not there are some who adhere to the law. Im not talking about regular users but the masses who are part time or not even that.
Of course there are some who don't do illegal drugs simply because they are illegal. But I suspect that it's a tiny fraction of those who don't do illegal drugs because they have no interest. Some may have been conditioned to think that they're more addictive, more dangerous than alcohol or nicotine, some associate certain drugs as part of a particular class of people and not want to be part of that crowd. My point is that I doubt that we'd be overrun with (new) addicts if everything was suddenly legalized. Some new addicts, of course, but the upside in fewer people rotting in jail on possession convictions and more people getting medical treatment for addiction would, on the whole, be greater.
Endut! Hoch Hech!

I feel that, had he lived, John Lennon would have loved Donkey Kong.

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