The Gun Politics Thread

Politics and other such topical creams.
101Walterton
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by 101Walterton » 15 Mar 2009, 9:14pm

eumaas wrote:
101Walterton wrote:and denial is always a good supporter.
And here you are again at a loss for rational arguments.

As usual.
You have been trying to draw me in to some ridiculous debate that you will take off on some weird, irrelevent, tangent since your initial post. Why dont you tell me exactly why you need a gun to protect you from the army because I wasn't aware that they were a threat to you personally ?

Wolter
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by Wolter » 15 Mar 2009, 9:18pm

101Walterton wrote:
eumaas wrote:
101Walterton wrote:and denial is always a good supporter.
And here you are again at a loss for rational arguments.

As usual.
You have been trying to draw me in to some ridiculous debate that you will take off on some weird, irrelevent, tangent since your initial post. Why dont you tell me exactly why you need a gun to protect you from the army because I wasn't aware that they were a threat to you personally ?
Nevermind.

You don't accept the basic anarchist (or even minarchist, or for that matter Jeffersonian Democratic-Republican) premise, so I don't have any possible way to explain to you why waiting until the government/army/police force is a personal threat is unwise. But, hey, no government in history has ever turned on any group of it's citizens after consolidating power...ever.
"There's something more honest, he believed, about traditional methods of mass starvation, labour camps, and machine gunning millions to death. Stalin was a vinyl guy who sneered at Truman converting everything to compact disc." - Thomas Jefferson

"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"

eumaas
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by eumaas » 15 Mar 2009, 9:22pm

101Walterton wrote:
eumaas wrote:
101Walterton wrote:and denial is always a good supporter.
And here you are again at a loss for rational arguments.

As usual.
You have been trying to draw me in to some ridiculous debate that you will take off on some weird, irrelevent, tangent since your initial post.
My initial post was a link. Anyone is welcome to post in this thread. Just because you don't understand the arguments I present doesn't make them weird and irrelevant. Others certainly understand them.
Why dont you tell me exactly why you need a gun to protect you from the army because I wasn't aware that they were a threat to you personally ?
Because the army and the police, as the enforcement arm of the state (defined as that organization that successfully claims a monopoly on the legitimate initiatory exercise of force in a given territory), are always a threat to the people who live in that territory. I can provide examples of the United States government killing its own citizens in the 20th century and on, and there are also numerous examples of other governments doing the same.
"The only thing that really occurs to me that I can say on this is to point out how fascinating it is that the Hassan-i-Sabbah archetype keeps turning up over and over again ... He disappears up into the mountains and is never seen again. Believe me, he'll never be seen again. He'll live forever because of that."

101Walterton
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by 101Walterton » 15 Mar 2009, 9:22pm

Wolter wrote:
101Walterton wrote:
eumaas wrote:
101Walterton wrote:and denial is always a good supporter.
And here you are again at a loss for rational arguments.

As usual.
You have been trying to draw me in to some ridiculous debate that you will take off on some weird, irrelevent, tangent since your initial post. Why dont you tell me exactly why you need a gun to protect you from the army because I wasn't aware that they were a threat to you personally ?
Nevermind.

You don't accept the basic anarchist (or even minarchist, or for that matter Jeffersonian Democratic-Republican) premise, so I don't have any possible way to explain to you why waiting until the government/army/police force is a personal threat is unwise. But, hey, no government in history has ever turned on any group of it's citizens after consolidating power...ever.
Oh look out no show without Punch !

Wolter
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by Wolter » 15 Mar 2009, 9:23pm

101Walterton wrote:
Wolter wrote:
101Walterton wrote:
eumaas wrote:
101Walterton wrote:and denial is always a good supporter.
And here you are again at a loss for rational arguments.

As usual.
You have been trying to draw me in to some ridiculous debate that you will take off on some weird, irrelevent, tangent since your initial post. Why dont you tell me exactly why you need a gun to protect you from the army because I wasn't aware that they were a threat to you personally ?
Nevermind.

You don't accept the basic anarchist (or even minarchist, or for that matter Jeffersonian Democratic-Republican) premise, so I don't have any possible way to explain to you why waiting until the government/army/police force is a personal threat is unwise. But, hey, no government in history has ever turned on any group of it's citizens after consolidating power...ever.
Oh look out no show without Punch !
Yeah, ad hominem attacks. That's the sign of someone who's making a valid point. I respect that. I mean it.
"There's something more honest, he believed, about traditional methods of mass starvation, labour camps, and machine gunning millions to death. Stalin was a vinyl guy who sneered at Truman converting everything to compact disc." - Thomas Jefferson

"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"

Heston
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by Heston » 15 Mar 2009, 9:25pm

As the Doc would say, it's "Popcorn Time".
So what does Marconi playing the mamba mean? "Marconi" is referring to the radio itself. It plays a deadly snake. The snake - the mamba - is slithering from the speakers. Ready to kill greedy corporations. Ready to free the world of all that is evil, and to leave behind only the youthful idealism encompassed by the tenets of rock and roll.

Dr. Medulla
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by Dr. Medulla » 15 Mar 2009, 9:25pm

Wolter wrote:You don't accept the basic anarchist (or even minarchist, or for that matter Jeffersonian Democratic-Republican) premise, so I don't have any possible way to explain to you why waiting until the government/army/police force is a personal threat is unwise. But, hey, no government in history has ever turned on any group of it's citizens after consolidating power...ever.
Weigh that, however, against the general insecurity and violence (random and otherwise) that accompanies widespread gun possession. It's not as simple as apparently burying one's head in the sand and hope that martial law isn't declared. It's an awareness that if you want plenty of guns out there to protect you from that hypothetical scenario, then there's also increased gun violence. Is the trade-off worth it? I say no.
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Wolter
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by Wolter » 15 Mar 2009, 9:26pm

Heston wrote:As the Doc would say, it's "Popcorn Time".
Call me when the nachos are done.
"There's something more honest, he believed, about traditional methods of mass starvation, labour camps, and machine gunning millions to death. Stalin was a vinyl guy who sneered at Truman converting everything to compact disc." - Thomas Jefferson

"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"

Wolter
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by Wolter » 15 Mar 2009, 9:29pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
Wolter wrote:You don't accept the basic anarchist (or even minarchist, or for that matter Jeffersonian Democratic-Republican) premise, so I don't have any possible way to explain to you why waiting until the government/army/police force is a personal threat is unwise. But, hey, no government in history has ever turned on any group of it's citizens after consolidating power...ever.
Weigh that, however, against the general insecurity and violence (random and otherwise) that accompanies widespread gun possession. It's not as simple as apparently burying one's head in the sand and hope that martial law isn't declared. It's an awareness that if you want plenty of guns out there to protect you from that hypothetical scenario, then there's also increased gun violence. Is the trade-off worth it? I say no.
See Wally? This is how it's done.

Personally, I hate guns. Hate them. But I'm on the fence about the trade-offs - for the reasons both Hooks and eumaas state. But to automatically gainsay without evidence and just attack me for disagreeing with you as some sort of fictional tag team with eumaas is just immature and shows a lack of reasoning behind your arguments.
"There's something more honest, he believed, about traditional methods of mass starvation, labour camps, and machine gunning millions to death. Stalin was a vinyl guy who sneered at Truman converting everything to compact disc." - Thomas Jefferson

"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"

101Walterton
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by 101Walterton » 15 Mar 2009, 9:31pm

eumaas wrote:
101Walterton wrote:
eumaas wrote:
101Walterton wrote:and denial is always a good supporter.
And here you are again at a loss for rational arguments.

As usual.
You have been trying to draw me in to some ridiculous debate that you will take off on some weird, irrelevent, tangent since your initial post.
My initial post was a link. Anyone is welcome to post in this thread. Just because you don't understand the arguments I present doesn't make them weird and irrelevant. Others certainly understand them.
Why dont you tell me exactly why you need a gun to protect you from the army because I wasn't aware that they were a threat to you personally ?
Because the army and the police, as the enforcement arm of the state (defined as that organization that successfully claims a monopoly on the legitimate initiatory exercise of force in a given territory), are always a threat to the people who live in that territory. I can provide examples of the United States government killing its own citizens in the 20th century and on, and there are also numerous examples of other governments doing the same.
So just to make sure I have this clear, you need a gun to protect yourself from United States and overseas governments killing you ?

eumaas
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by eumaas » 15 Mar 2009, 9:54pm

Wolter wrote:
Dr. Medulla wrote:
Wolter wrote:You don't accept the basic anarchist (or even minarchist, or for that matter Jeffersonian Democratic-Republican) premise, so I don't have any possible way to explain to you why waiting until the government/army/police force is a personal threat is unwise. But, hey, no government in history has ever turned on any group of it's citizens after consolidating power...ever.
Weigh that, however, against the general insecurity and violence (random and otherwise) that accompanies widespread gun possession. It's not as simple as apparently burying one's head in the sand and hope that martial law isn't declared. It's an awareness that if you want plenty of guns out there to protect you from that hypothetical scenario, then there's also increased gun violence. Is the trade-off worth it? I say no.
See Wally? This is how it's done.

Personally, I hate guns. Hate them. But I'm on the fence about the trade-offs - for the reasons both Hooks and eumaas state. But to automatically gainsay without evidence and just attack me for disagreeing with you as some sort of fictional tag team with eumaas is just immature and shows a lack of reasoning behind your arguments.
Aside from the deterrent/armed insurrection argument, there's also the home invasion thing.

Shooting targets or tin cans is fun, but outside of that context I don't take any enjoyment in having a gun, nor do I use it to "feel safe." For me I consider it worthwhile to have it as an option. I live in a high crime neighborhood where the already meager benefit of a cop patrol approaches zero. This is a slow response neighborhood. I don't even hunt--I'm quite squeamish about taking lives. I was a vegetarian for five years, and there are only a few classes of bugs even that I'll kill willingly. I'm not sure whether I'd reach for the gun or the phone in the case of a home invasion. But having a gun on hand increases my options for response.

By the way, U.S. citizens don't have a constitutional right to protection, so if the cops don't come, there's nothing you can do about it after the fact.

I believe that self-defense is legitimate. I also believe that it is legitimate to step in if someone is menacing another person or already engaged in violence against that person. Furthermore, I believe that proportionality, while not an absolute constraint (i.e. once deadly force is involved, you don't have to go tit-for-tat--that is, a knife for a knife, a gun for a knife--you can bring a gun to a knife fight so to speak), is a good guide to the exercise of self-defense and defense of others. So if someone threatens me with fists, I won't necessarily whip out a pistol and kill him.
101Walterton wrote:So just to make sure I have this clear, you need a gun to protect yourself from United States and overseas governments killing you ?
Sure, although I think the state at home is far more likely a threat than that of an overseas government. I put both on the same plane though--whether you're defending against an invading state or your own is irrelevant. My other defense for the ownership of a gun (note that I don't think it's a mandatory thing--you can choose on your own whether or not to own a gun) is the broader issue of self-defense as outlined above.
"The only thing that really occurs to me that I can say on this is to point out how fascinating it is that the Hassan-i-Sabbah archetype keeps turning up over and over again ... He disappears up into the mountains and is never seen again. Believe me, he'll never be seen again. He'll live forever because of that."

eumaas
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by eumaas » 15 Mar 2009, 10:15pm

Just a few cases off the top of my head, not counting all the individual cases of cops killing and wounding innocent people:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_march
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orangeburg_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_State_killings
"The only thing that really occurs to me that I can say on this is to point out how fascinating it is that the Hassan-i-Sabbah archetype keeps turning up over and over again ... He disappears up into the mountains and is never seen again. Believe me, he'll never be seen again. He'll live forever because of that."

eumaas
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by eumaas » 15 Mar 2009, 10:43pm

"The only thing that really occurs to me that I can say on this is to point out how fascinating it is that the Hassan-i-Sabbah archetype keeps turning up over and over again ... He disappears up into the mountains and is never seen again. Believe me, he'll never be seen again. He'll live forever because of that."

Wolter
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by Wolter » 15 Mar 2009, 10:45pm

I used to live there!
"There's something more honest, he believed, about traditional methods of mass starvation, labour camps, and machine gunning millions to death. Stalin was a vinyl guy who sneered at Truman converting everything to compact disc." - Thomas Jefferson

"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"

eumaas
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by eumaas » 15 Mar 2009, 10:46pm

Wolter wrote:
I used to live there!
I'm sure your fashion sense was the real massacre.
"The only thing that really occurs to me that I can say on this is to point out how fascinating it is that the Hassan-i-Sabbah archetype keeps turning up over and over again ... He disappears up into the mountains and is never seen again. Believe me, he'll never be seen again. He'll live forever because of that."

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