The Gun Politics Thread

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Flex
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by Flex »

101Walterton wrote:See this is the part I don't get. You claim this open minded approach however you are no different to Steve and every other gun owner I have spoken to in that you dismiss gun legislation for the staus quo without any attempt to do anything to stem the tide of mass shotings.
Stop it. Stop it right now. eumaas - in the way he constructs an argument - is absolutely nothing like Steve. In fact, with your barely concealed disdain for knowledge and rational, fact based argument you are the closest person here to Steve. Of course, as eumaas points out, at least Steve sort of cited the sources of his positions (granted, they were shoddy and his method of "debate" was more like that of a troll).

In any case, eumaas has argued many things over the course of his time on these boards, but arguing in favor of "the status quo" has never been one of them. That you characterize his argument as such suggests you have not grasped his position in the slightest. He has pretty much held your hand the whole way to try to get you to understand, too.
Also, like Steve, you base your arguments on your 'books and papers' which you like to cut and paste in great quantity to back up 'your opinion'. For every book and paper supporting you there is a book and paper against you so have you dimissed all those ? I have studied a number of related fields none of which I would cut and paste to back up my point of view because that is a futile excersize.
The onus is on you to defend your own freakin' position. If you are basing your opinions on this large body of evidence and writing, as you claim, cite some of it. Cite just one goddamned study or paper. If you don't do any of that, fine, whatever floats your boat. But don't expect anyone to take you seriously. Making arguments with absolutely no willingness to cite where you're getting your "facts" from is the futile exercise here, not what eumaas is doing.

It also helps to steel yourself from attack if you put forth a cogent argument. In favor of gun control, Inder and Medulla have done that, and done it quite well. Crooked Beat was able to put together extraordinarily excellent arguments in favor of gun control back when he posted here. I say this because I want to make it clear that you're not being picked on for the sentiments of your position (which I'm sympathetic towards), but rather that your methodology is beyond merely "suspect." What's worse is you seem to completely lack awareness of your epistemological shortcomings, making the ability to move forward in a debate with you practically impossible.
Whilst I concede to you I appear to be stubborn and closeminded in my opinion (just like you and Steve) however I have 27 years of working in related fields and place far more weight on that that than 'others papers' experience I have read about in a book or paper.
1. This is wrong on so, so many levels I find it intellectually offensive.
2. The point of studies and research is to gather data that a single person simply cannot gather enough experience with on a personal basis. There are a lot of things one can question about a study (methodology, conclusions, etc.) but to reject wholesale the idea that studies offer more complete information than one's personal experiences and that the latter is somehow inherently more valuable than the former is folly.
My main sticking point, and the reason for my closeminded opinion, is the protection of innocent people from the mass shooting that will occur. I vote for change because your status quo isn't working and surely trying to do something about it is better than standing back and doing nothing whilst people are being slaughtered.
Again, eumaas has not been advocating an adherence to the status quo. It's also offensive to suggest that people that may not be huge gun control advocates don't care about people who get shot. Just as it was offensive for Steve to suggest gun control advocates were responsible for the Virginia Tech shootings. It's inflammatory rhetoric with no purpose whatsoever.

Cut the shit. Everyone here is concerned with trying to improve lives. How we do that is the difference, and these are differences worthy of discussion and debate. To say otherwise is just a fucking sideshow.
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

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Just to talk feasibility as opposed to desirability here...

I actually think the empirical case favors less gun ownership as a solution to the gun crime/mass shootings problem, but I think a gun ban would have unsavory economic effects much in the same way as prohibition of alcohol and drugs created massive black markets. Of course, a gun is harder to produce than alcohol or drugs, but there are many shady arms manufacturers across the world that would be willing to supply shoddy guns to a high profit black market after the prohibition of firearms. There's also the problem of how to disarm criminals who already possess these weapons. I think some people just assume the supply would whittle down over time as the police seize property, but that ignores the likely flow of new guns into the country by sea or across the border (or domestically by hijackings, burglaries, and corrupt dealings) as part of the black market. The real issue is the demand for weapons, and I don't see that gun prohibition affects demand for guns among criminals except to divert that demand into the black market and increase the hell out of the prices, which would mean entrepreneurs swarming to provide product for a high profit.

You could avoid prohibition and just pay top dollar to buy up weapons as part of a voluntary disarmament program. But you'd have to be recompensing the hell out of people, and that raises even more economic issues, including gaming the system.
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101Walterton
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by 101Walterton »

Flex wrote:
101Walterton wrote:See this is the part I don't get. You claim this open minded approach however you are no different to Steve and every other gun owner I have spoken to in that you dismiss gun legislation for the staus quo without any attempt to do anything to stem the tide of mass shotings.
Stop it. Stop it right now. eumaas - in the way he constructs an argument - is absolutely nothing like Steve. In fact, with your barely concealed disdain for knowledge and rational, fact based argument you are the closest person here to Steve. Of course, as eumaas points out, at least Steve sort of cited the sources of his positions (granted, they were shoddy and his method of "debate" was more like that of a troll).

In any case, eumaas has argued many things over the course of his time on these boards, but arguing in favor of "the status quo" has never been one of them. That you characterize his argument as such suggests you have not grasped his position in the slightest. He has pretty much held your hand the whole way to try to get you to understand, too.
Also, like Steve, you base your arguments on your 'books and papers' which you like to cut and paste in great quantity to back up 'your opinion'. For every book and paper supporting you there is a book and paper against you so have you dimissed all those ? I have studied a number of related fields none of which I would cut and paste to back up my point of view because that is a futile excersize.
The onus is on you to defend your own freakin' position. If you are basing your opinions on this large body of evidence and writing, as you claim, cite some of it. Cite just one goddamned study or paper. If you don't do any of that, fine, whatever floats your boat. But don't expect anyone to take you seriously. Making arguments with absolutely no willingness to cite where you're getting your "facts" from is the futile exercise here, not what eumaas is doing.

It also helps to steel yourself from attack if you put forth a cogent argument. In favor of gun control, Inder and Medulla have done that, and done it quite well. Crooked Beat was able to put together extraordinarily excellent arguments in favor of gun control back when he posted here. I say this because I want to make it clear that you're not being picked on for the sentiments of your position (which I'm sympathetic towards), but rather that your methodology is beyond merely "suspect." What's worse is you seem to completely lack awareness of your epistemological shortcomings, making the ability to move forward in a debate with you practically impossible.
Whilst I concede to you I appear to be stubborn and closeminded in my opinion (just like you and Steve) however I have 27 years of working in related fields and place far more weight on that that than 'others papers' experience I have read about in a book or paper.
1. This is wrong on so, so many levels I find it intellectually offensive.
2. The point of studies and research is to gather data that a single person simply cannot gather enough experience with on a personal basis. There are a lot of things one can question about a study (methodology, conclusions, etc.) but to reject wholesale the idea that studies offer more complete information than one's personal experiences and that the latter is somehow inherently more valuable than the former is folly.
My main sticking point, and the reason for my closeminded opinion, is the protection of innocent people from the mass shooting that will occur. I vote for change because your status quo isn't working and surely trying to do something about it is better than standing back and doing nothing whilst people are being slaughtered.
Again, eumaas has not been advocating an adherence to the status quo. It's also offensive to suggest that people that may not be huge gun control advocates don't care about people who get shot. Just as it was offensive for Steve to suggest gun control advocates were responsible for the Virginia Tech shootings. It's inflammatory rhetoric with no purpose whatsoever.

Cut the shit. Everyone here is concerned with trying to improve lives. How we do that is the difference, and these are differences worthy of discussion and debate. To say otherwise is just a fucking sideshow.
"Stop it. Stop it right now"

Who do you think you are ?

Flex
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

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101Walterton wrote:"Stop it. Stop it right now"

Who do you think you are ?
That's some quality analysis and response, right there.

Edit 2: Missed the boat.
Last edited by Flex on 16 Mar 2009, 6:25pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by 101Walterton »

eumaas wrote:
101Walterton wrote:"See, I believe that applying reason and seeking knowledge and wisdom is a good thing, so I read books and papers and follow the news and try to learn something new every day. I don't just believe that vague feelings are all that matter and that asserting a feeling is the only form of "logical discussion." I don't believe that I'm correct by the virtue of my feelings. I challenge each one of my opinions on a regular basis and actively seek out opposing material so I can see if I'm holding to a view on the basis of its own merit or just because of my feelings. This has led to an uncomfortable process where over the course of six years my opinions have changed radically. I have tested and rejected many beliefs. How many times have you managed to change your mind on something, Wally? Was it because of feelings, or because of facts and rational argument? I'm refining, revising, and rejecting all the time because I believe truth and wisdom are ends in themselves. Reason is a virtue. Try to practice it sometime."

See this is the part I don't get. You claim this open minded approach however you are no different to Steve and every other gun owner I have spoken to in that you dismiss gun legislation for the staus quo without any attempt to do anything to stem the tide of mass shotings.
Also, like Steve, you base your arguments on your 'books and papers' which you like to cut and paste in great quantity to back up 'your opinion'. For every book and paper supporting you there is a book and paper against you so have you dimissed all those ? I have studied a number of related fields none of which I would cut and paste to back up my point of view because that is a futile excersize.
Whilst I concede to you I appear to be stubborn and closeminded in my opinion (just like you and Steve) however I have 27 years of working in related fields and place far more weight on that that than 'others papers' experience I have read about in a book or paper.
My main sticking point, and the reason for my closeminded opinion, is the protection of innocent people from the mass shooting that will occur. I vote for change because your status quo isn't working and surely trying to do something about it is better than standing back and doing nothing whilst people are being slaughtered.
You cannot argue by pathos alone.
As opposed to your bathos.

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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by 101Walterton »

Flex wrote:
101Walterton wrote:"Stop it. Stop it right now"

Who do you think you are ?
That's some quality analysis and response, right there.
When I stop laughing I'll post some more.

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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by eumaas »

101Walterton wrote:
Flex wrote:
101Walterton wrote:"Stop it. Stop it right now"

Who do you think you are ?
That's some quality analysis and response, right there.
When I stop laughing I'll post some more.
Do you have a learning disability? I don't mean that as an insult at all. I'm sincerely asking the question.
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
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I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by 101Walterton »

It's OK I'm gone. I am joining the very long list of regulars who used to come here until it was ruined by the few.

Flex
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by Flex »

101Walterton wrote:It's OK I'm gone. I am joining the very long list of regulars who used to come here until it was ruined by the few.
Jesus fuck dude, don't be a Sean Flynn. When you're discussing politics, prepare to have to defend your positions. If you can't or won't - and continue to insist on arguing your point - it's fair game to come under heavy fire.

But yeah, run away so you never, ever have to put any thought into your beliefs. Just don't act like it's us making you leave. We engage you because we want you to fight back, not because we're sick of you. If that were the case, you'd just be ignored (either through a foe feature or just by a lack of responses).

Have fun living in a world where you never have to think about what you believe.
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead

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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by eumaas »

I wasn't trying to go ad hom or anything. I have a very intelligent friend who excels at several subjects but it's a real struggle for her because her learning disability makes deductive arguments very difficult for her. That's why I was asking.
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman

I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy

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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by Wolter »

What the hell happened while I went grocery shopping?
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Wolter wrote:What the hell happened while I went grocery shopping?
Without the centre of gravity you provide to this place, certain bodies broke from their orbit. Tep's become a rogue comet.
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by Wolter »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
Wolter wrote:What the hell happened while I went grocery shopping?
Without the centre of gravity you provide to this place, certain bodies broke from their orbit. Tep's become a rogue comet.
I knew he would one day.
”INDER LOCK THE THE KISS THREAD IVE REALISED IM A PRZE IDOOT” - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by BostonBeaneater »

I LIKE GUNS.
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Re: The Gun Politics Thread

Post by Dr. Medulla »

I Love a Man in a Uniform
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