History's greatest conspiracy theories

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Dr. Medulla
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Re: History's greatest conspiracy theories

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I recall reading a snippet of a piece that claimed that the attack on PH wasn't as much of a sneak attack as it turned. Either thru miscommunication or some other snafu, a Japanese envoy was late in delivering a declaration of war in Washington. It was supposed to be timed to near perfection, but it came after the attack began. Which doesn't really matter as it would have taken time for the word to go out and the results the same, but there was an effort, so it seems, on the part of the Japanese to cross the t's and dot the i's.
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eumaas
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Re: History's greatest conspiracy theories

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Dr. Medulla wrote:I recall reading a snippet of a piece that claimed that the attack on PH wasn't as much of a sneak attack as it turned. Either thru miscommunication or some other snafu, a Japanese envoy was late in delivering a declaration of war in Washington. It was supposed to be timed to near perfection, but it came after the attack began. Which doesn't really matter as it would have taken time for the word to go out and the results the same, but there was an effort, so it seems, on the part of the Japanese to cross the t's and dot the i's.
Not quite a declaration of war, but a sort of "cessation of peace negotiations" as I recall. It was supposed to allow surprise while being in line with the letter of international law or something.

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101Walterton
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Re: History's greatest conspiracy theories

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I dont believe in conspiracy people cannot keep a secret :shifty: .

Dr. Medulla
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Re: History's greatest conspiracy theories

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101Walterton wrote:I dont believe in conspiracy people cannot keep a secret :shifty: .
That just shows why genuine conspiracies come to light. And why I don't buy into conspiracies with huge numbers of actors but seemingly no one ever talks.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: History's greatest conspiracy theories

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
101Walterton wrote:I dont believe in conspiracy people cannot keep a secret :shifty: .
That just shows why genuine conspiracies come to light. And why I don't buy into conspiracies with huge numbers of actors but seemingly no one ever talks.
If its true the truth WILL come out and then it is no longer a conspiracy therefore the conspiracy does not exist :mrgreen:

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Re: History's greatest conspiracy theories

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In response to the notion that we can count on the truth always coming out I can only scream JFK; at this point, I doubt we'll ever know what really happened let alone who was involved and why. There was certainly more than one or two people who knew and could have told more than they did. What of the Warren Report? There was a bunch of people involved with and/or supportive of that piece of toilet paper.
4. The shots which killed President Kennedy and wounded Governor Connally were fired by Lee Harvey Oswald. This conclusion is based upon the following:
* (a)The Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5-millimeter Italian rifle from which the shots were fired was owned by and in the possession of Oswald.
* (b)Oswald carried this rifle into the Depository Building on the morning of November 22, 1963.
* (c)Oswald, at the time of the assassination, was present at the window from which the shots were fired.
* (d)Shortly after the assassination, the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle belonging to Oswald was found partially hidden between some cartons on the sixth floor and the improvised paper bag in which Oswald brought the rifle to the Depository was found dose by the window from which the shots were fired.
* (e)Based on testimony of the experts and their analysis of films of the assassination, the Commission has concluded that a rifleman of Lee Harvey Oswald's capabilities could have fired the shots from the rifle used in the assassination within the elapsed time of the shooting. The Commission has concluded further that Oswald possessed the capability with a rifle which enabled him to commit the assassination.
* (f)Oswald lied to the police after his arrest concerning important substantive matters.
* (g)Oswald had attempted to kill Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker (Retired, U.S. Army) on April 10, 1963, thereby demonstrating his disposition to take human life.
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Dr. Medulla
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Re: History's greatest conspiracy theories

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The Warren Report is obviously a fucked up bit of rationalization—every damn point that you quote is unproven or skewed—but there is some doubt (to me anyway) as to its reasons. Supposedly Lyndon Johnson told Earl Warren that the public didn't want to hear that it was some kind of plot by Cuba or Russia because it would lead to war (something along those lines). Accepting that exchange as valid, did the Warren Commission distort the evidence out of a genuine desire to prevent a crisis and possible war or was it to continue an ongoing conspiracy involving the government? That is, when did government involvement in the conspiracy begin—before JFK was shot or only once the WC was impaneled?
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: History's greatest conspiracy theories

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Dr. Medulla wrote:when did government involvement in the conspiracy begin—before JFK was shot or only once the WC was impaneled?
Similar questions exist as to 9-11 and Iraq, i.e. was the government involved other than after the fact through taking opportunities afforded and/or covering up? If the Warren Report was merely a cover up because revealing it had been Cuba or Russia was deemed inappropriate for the public why haven't they, or rather hasn't it, the government, confessed? Nothing is to be gained by maintaining such a cover up, acknowledging the circumstances and seeing as it was done with the best of intentions. Most of the actual players are dead and gone anyhow. So perhaps it's the government protecting itself without regard to the wishes of it populous, but if so that is precisely why the government should always have the burden to fully explain and prove itself not involved when something like 9-11 or Iraq occurs. But alas we appear to quickly forgive or simply not care enough. What we need is a reliable bullshit detector. Wouldn't that be a nice federal agency: the Department of Bullshit Detection.
PAGE 1

THE ASSASSINATION of John Fitzgerald Kennedy on November 22, 1963, was a cruel and shocking act of violence directed against a man, a family, a nation, and against all mankind. A young and vigorous leader whose years of public and private life stretched before him was the victim of the fourth Presidential assassination in the history of a country dedicated to the concepts of reasoned argument and peaceful political change. This Commission was created on November 29, 1963, in recognition of the right of people everywhere to full and truthful knowledge concerning these events. This report endeavors to fulfill that right and to appraise this tragedy by the light of reason and the standard of fairness. It has been prepared with a deep awareness of the Commission's responsibility to present to the American people an objective report of the facts relating to the assassination.
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Dr. Medulla
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Re: History's greatest conspiracy theories

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dpwolf wrote:
Dr. Medulla wrote:when did government involvement in the conspiracy begin—before JFK was shot or only once the WC was impaneled?
Similar questions exist as to 9-11 and Iraq, i.e. was the government involved other than after the fact through taking opportunities afforded and/or covering up? If the Warren Report was merely a cover up because revealing it had been Cuba or Russia was deemed inappropriate for the public why haven't they, or rather hasn't it, the government, confessed?
I think you know the answer: it would weaken faith in the current government. And, depending on who was involved, if that specific rot continues (as Oliver Stone argues) there is a more specific reason to continue the cover-up. The unpublished material still has another 31 years to go before it's declassified, and I wouldn't be surprised if the contents are gutted before that happens.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

dpwolf
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Re: History's greatest conspiracy theories

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
dpwolf wrote:
Dr. Medulla wrote:when did government involvement in the conspiracy begin—before JFK was shot or only once the WC was impaneled?
Similar questions exist as to 9-11 and Iraq, i.e. was the government involved other than after the fact through taking opportunities afforded and/or covering up? If the Warren Report was merely a cover up because revealing it had been Cuba or Russia was deemed inappropriate for the public why haven't they, or rather hasn't it, the government, confessed?
I think you know the answer: it would weaken faith in the current government. And, depending on who was involved, if that specific rot continues (as Oliver Stone argues) there is a more specific reason to continue the cover-up. The unpublished material still has another 31 years to go before it's declassified, and I wouldn't be surprised if the contents are gutted before that happens.
You're of course right and that is the root of the problem to my mind. Our faith in the current government is weakened because we know they are hiding something about JFK; we are therefore free to assume the worse and the government lets us. If it in fact it is not the worse, however, shouldn't the government simply admit its involvement in, for example, a after the fact cover up - to reinstall that faith which is now lacking? I blame the government for not taking this rather obvious tact and also blame the people - and their representatives in the government - for complacently accepting a story we know to be false or at a minimum incomplete, and not pressing the issue harder. It seems to me that to press the issue and obtain the truth to which we are entitled, we should feel free to assume the worse case scenario as to the government's involvement and spit out accusations, however outlandish, until at least all the known facts have been disclosed. Beat that dead horse! We need an autopsy.
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Dr. Medulla
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Re: History's greatest conspiracy theories

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dpwolf wrote:
Dr. Medulla wrote:
dpwolf wrote:
Dr. Medulla wrote:when did government involvement in the conspiracy begin—before JFK was shot or only once the WC was impaneled?
Similar questions exist as to 9-11 and Iraq, i.e. was the government involved other than after the fact through taking opportunities afforded and/or covering up? If the Warren Report was merely a cover up because revealing it had been Cuba or Russia was deemed inappropriate for the public why haven't they, or rather hasn't it, the government, confessed?
I think you know the answer: it would weaken faith in the current government. And, depending on who was involved, if that specific rot continues (as Oliver Stone argues) there is a more specific reason to continue the cover-up. The unpublished material still has another 31 years to go before it's declassified, and I wouldn't be surprised if the contents are gutted before that happens.
You're of course right and that is the root of the problem to my mind. Our faith in the current government is weakened because we know they are hiding something about JFK; we are therefore free to assume the worse and the government lets us.
Yet there are some smart people who still agree with the WR. Bugliosi for one. Just as there are a lot of gullible people who still buy into the lone nut theory, there are also some batshit people who buy into the conspiracy. So the connection between what people believe about JFK and their opinion of govt is, well, a mixed bag of motives and reasoning.
If it in fact it is not the worse, however, shouldn't the government simply admit its involvement in, for example, a after the fact cover up - to reinstall that faith which is now lacking? I blame the government for not taking this rather obvious tact and also blame the people - and their representatives in the government - for complacently accepting a story we know to be false or at a minimum incomplete, and not pressing the issue harder.
All movements have a lifespan and finite amount of energy and momentum. The Church Commission went a decent way towards debunking the WR, and then Stone's flick distilled matters into something even more understandable. But for most, I suspect, the attitude is that what's past is past and knowing the truth won't change the present one bit, especially if the actors are all dead now. I've always wondered how hard Ted Kennedy has pushed for full revelation (albeit privately).
It seems to me that to press the issue and obtain the truth to which we are entitled, we should feel free to assume the worse case scenario as to the government's involvement and spit out accusations, however outlandish, until at least all the known facts have been disclosed. Beat that dead horse! We need an autopsy.
As a tactic, do you think that it's one geared towards success? Sadly, Oliver Stone became a punchline because of JFK, in part because he took somewhat of a kitchen sink approach. Honestly, I don't know what strategy would be best for getting a full revelation of the WC's documents before the expiration of the court order.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

dpwolf
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Re: History's greatest conspiracy theories

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
dpwolf wrote:It seems to me that to press the issue and obtain the truth to which we are entitled, we should feel free to assume the worse case scenario as to the government's involvement and spit out accusations, however outlandish, until at least all the known facts have been disclosed. Beat that dead horse! We need an autopsy.
As a tactic, do you think that it's one geared towards success? Sadly, Oliver Stone became a punchline because of JFK, in part because he took somewhat of a kitchen sink approach. Honestly, I don't know what strategy would be best for getting a full revelation of the WC's documents before the expiration of the court order.
At least its an attempt to get at the truth by allowing the government to jump in and dismiss those theories it can easily and quickly, leaving alternate theories including the truth more discoverable; I admit it doesn't appear to work that way but honestly don't know of any other strategy which would work better. Sadly. If Stone became a punchline despite honest efforts to arrive at the truth, he merely met the same fate as anyone who doesn't either accept the WR or not care enough to question further. He gets lumped together with the dude who thinks the face on Mars had something to do with it, or bigfoot. I always wonder if that sort of blatantly obnoxious and illogical dismissal on the part of the government is intentional. For example, take UFOs. The government feels free to dismiss them wholesale and without comment, much like it does anything but the WR when it comes to JFK. That's not honest, nor is it what we the people want. It implies a secretive, controlling and manipulative government, a government which forgets who created it and what it's there for. It stinks.
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eumaas
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Re: History's greatest conspiracy theories

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dpwolf wrote:It implies a secretive, controlling and manipulative government, a government which forgets who created it and what it's there for. It stinks.
You mean a government acting like a government? I'm shocked!
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman

I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy

eumaas
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Re: History's greatest conspiracy theories

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Image
:disshame:
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman

I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy

dpwolf
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Re: History's greatest conspiracy theories

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Wow. :scared: :meh: :cry: :mad: :angry:
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