Tonight ought to be interesting

[eumaas]

It doesn't, other than your age.

And again, what does my age have to do with this? Does age necessarily equal wisdom? Does experience equal wisdom? Shouldn't you vote McCain then?

Wise and admirable. Truly. But I'm not sure one can segregate beliefs from actions even if for some reason one wanted to, just as I don't think not voting equates to your not participating in the system.

I participate in that I pay my taxes and don't go freegan or something, but I try to minimize participation in the electoral aspect which I believe is what provides ideological legitimacy to the system.

Forget the parties; would you rather have McCain/Palin or Obama/Biden in the executive? Its as simple as that.

And that is why I'll probably vote, simply because Obama seems more competent.

Not voting doesn't help you meditate, be more true to yourself, further your cause, help eliminate the two party system, help others or even influence others, except perhaps through charisma not to vote.

Actually I would argue it does help me, as I find participating in this system or granting it any kind of legitimacy a very demoralizing, soul-sucking process. Sort of like those games where you have to choose between raping your grandmother or stomping a puppy to death.

What I said shouldn't have been interpreted as any kind of endorsement of the Democratic Party. Indeed, like Flex was arguing, it's the lower levels where there's a greater chance of directly helping those in need, at the municipal and, to a degree, the state/provincial levels. The point is that if there's someone running who has a track record of contributing meaningfully in the community, be it in a private or public capacity, perhaps that possibility of doing further good is greater than hostility to the state. Perhaps, anyway.

I agree with Flex on the municipal/state levels. The smaller the scale the more an impact can be made.

And at the beginning of the Obama thing I thought maybe there was a positive candidate who would do something. But the Biden pick was like a punch in the face for me.

Also, that Obama is running to the centre is not necessarily indicative of how he'd govern. Electoral politics is different than governing politics. The rule of thumb (ignored by Karl Rove) is that you run at your base in the primaries then run to the centre in the election. Clinton and Bush Sr. governed more to the centre (relative to their base), but Reagan and Bush II went back to the base when governing. So disillusionment with how Obama is running isn't necessarily predictive.

It's a possibility, which may make the voting an easier pill to swallow.

[Dr. Medulla]

And at the beginning of the Obama thing I thought maybe there was a positive candidate who would do something. But the Biden pick was like a punch in the face for me.

I was less bothered by that—it was a necessary tactic given how US presidential politics plays; he could have gone with someone less compromised, shall we say, but if it doesn't get him elected, it's just a noble defeat—than his vote to immunize the telecoms for their role in the illegal eavesdropping. That was just ugly. He's not a perfect candidate by any means, but if I were an American I wouldn't feel I was pinching my nose as much as I would have with Kerry, Gore, Clinton, or Dukakis (well, I was originally impressed with Clinton; that wore off).

[eumaas]

And at the beginning of the Obama thing I thought maybe there was a positive candidate who would do something. But the Biden pick was like a punch in the face for me.

I was less bothered by that—it was a necessary tactic given how US presidential politics plays; he could have gone with someone less compromised, shall we say, but if it doesn't get him elected, it's just a noble defeat—than his vote to immunize the telecoms for their role in the illegal eavesdropping. That was just ugly. He's not a perfect candidate by any means, but if I were an American I wouldn't feel I was pinching my nose as much as I would have with Kerry, Gore, Clinton, or Dukakis (well, I was originally impressed with Clinton; that wore off).

Oh, he's miles ahead of Kerry. I'm glad I was only 17 during that election. Bush's reelection depressed me, but Kerry was a shitty candidate.

[dpwolf]

Forget the parties; would you rather have McCain/Palin or Obama/Biden in the executive? Its as simple as that.

And that is why I'll probably vote, simply because Obama seems more competent.

Sweet.

Not voting doesn't help you meditate, be more true to yourself, further your cause, help eliminate the two party system, help others or even influence others, except perhaps through charisma not to vote.

Actually I would argue it does help me, as I find participating in this system or granting it any kind of legitimacy a very demoralizing, soul-sucking process. Sort of like those games where you have to choose between raping your grandmother or stomping a puppy to death.

(emphasis added) I agree and was just trying to convince you to vote, regardless of that bitter pill.

[eumaas]

I'm still not dropping your age reference. Come right out and say what you mean, pyramid boy.

[Wolter]

And at the beginning of the Obama thing I thought maybe there was a positive candidate who would do something. But the Biden pick was like a punch in the face for me.

I was less bothered by that—it was a necessary tactic given how US presidential politics plays; he could have gone with someone less compromised, shall we say, but if it doesn't get him elected, it's just a noble defeat—than his vote to immunize the telecoms for their role in the illegal eavesdropping. That was just ugly. He's not a perfect candidate by any means, but if I were an American I wouldn't feel I was pinching my nose as much as I would have with Kerry, Gore, Clinton, or Dukakis (well, I was originally impressed with Clinton; that wore off).

Oh, he's miles ahead of Kerry. I'm glad I was only 17 during that election. Bush's reelection depressed me, but Kerry was a shitty candidate.

For the record, I find Obama the least reprehensible/boring Democratic presidential candidate in my memory. Of course this is a bit of a rogues gallery:

Mondale
Dukakis
Clinton
Gore
Kerry

[eumaas]

And at the beginning of the Obama thing I thought maybe there was a positive candidate who would do something. But the Biden pick was like a punch in the face for me.

I was less bothered by that—it was a necessary tactic given how US presidential politics plays; he could have gone with someone less compromised, shall we say, but if it doesn't get him elected, it's just a noble defeat—than his vote to immunize the telecoms for their role in the illegal eavesdropping. That was just ugly. He's not a perfect candidate by any means, but if I were an American I wouldn't feel I was pinching my nose as much as I would have with Kerry, Gore, Clinton, or Dukakis (well, I was originally impressed with Clinton; that wore off).

Oh, he's miles ahead of Kerry. I'm glad I was only 17 during that election. Bush's reelection depressed me, but Kerry was a shitty candidate.

For the record, I find Obama the least reprehensible/boring Democratic presidential candidate in my memory. Of course this is a bit of a rogues gallery:

Mondale
Dukakis
Clinton
Gore
Kerry

It's precisely because he's so palatable that his kowtowing to DNC masters is disheartening.

[dpwolf]

I'm still not dropping your age reference. Come right out and say what you mean, pyramid boy.

Ok. I apologize. You're right, I was implying that your thinking that not voting equates to not participating in the 'system' was naive, youthful. But you have since clarified, as I should have expected, that you're not talking about the 'system' in the abstract but rather specifically about the electoral process. Please forgive.


And I'm not dropping the unknown immortal thing. I once was immortal dammit !

[Wolter]

And at the beginning of the Obama thing I thought maybe there was a positive candidate who would do something. But the Biden pick was like a punch in the face for me.

I was less bothered by that—it was a necessary tactic given how US presidential politics plays; he could have gone with someone less compromised, shall we say, but if it doesn't get him elected, it's just a noble defeat—than his vote to immunize the telecoms for their role in the illegal eavesdropping. That was just ugly. He's not a perfect candidate by any means, but if I were an American I wouldn't feel I was pinching my nose as much as I would have with Kerry, Gore, Clinton, or Dukakis (well, I was originally impressed with Clinton; that wore off).

Oh, he's miles ahead of Kerry. I'm glad I was only 17 during that election. Bush's reelection depressed me, but Kerry was a shitty candidate.

For the record, I find Obama the least reprehensible/boring Democratic presidential candidate in my memory. Of course this is a bit of a rogues gallery:

Mondale
Dukakis
Clinton
Gore
Kerry

It's precisely because he's so palatable that his kowtowing to DNC masters is disheartening.

Oh, I agree. I'm stil torn between holding my nose for Obama or writing in Big Barda for my candidate myself.

[BostonBeaneater]

I'm still not dropping your age reference. Come right out and say what you mean, pyramid boy.

Gene, you're in VA, right? I say you should vote for the black guy, if only so we can put a black in the big seat. I understand your being disgusted by the process and the people we have to choose from. However, I think a black man in the White House would bring some good things to the country, even if only in a psychological sense.

[Flex]

And I'm not dropping the unknown immortal thing. I once was immortal dammit !

You just gotta post, like, 30 times a day. You get the Unknown Immortal tag when you do... what... a thousand posts? Maybe less.

[eumaas]

I'm still not dropping your age reference. Come right out and say what you mean, pyramid boy.

Gene, you're in VA, right? I say you should vote for the black guy, if only so we can put a black in the big seat. I understand your being disgusted by the process and the people we have to choose from. However, I think a black man in the White House would bring some good things to the country, even if only in a psychological sense.

My district is going to overwhelmingly vote Obama whether I drop a ballot in or not. But I'll probably vote anyway. Obama has two things going for him:
1. Seems a more competent administrator than McCain.
2. Would improve America's image.

Those are the only two reasons I can think of for voting (Obama), actually.

[BostonBeaneater]

I'm still not dropping your age reference. Come right out and say what you mean, pyramid boy.

Gene, you're in VA, right? I say you should vote for the black guy, if only so we can put a black in the big seat. I understand your being disgusted by the process and the people we have to choose from. However, I think a black man in the White House would bring some good things to the country, even if only in a psychological sense.

My district is going to overwhelmingly vote Obama whether I drop a ballot in or not. But I'll probably vote anyway. Obama has two things going for him:
1. Seems a more competent administrator than McCain.
2. Would improve America's image.

Those are the only two reasons I can think of for voting (Obama), actually.

Those are pretty good reasons in my opinion. Again, I understand holding your nose as it is, indeed, all cunt.

[eumaas]

I'm still not dropping your age reference. Come right out and say what you mean, pyramid boy.

Gene, you're in VA, right? I say you should vote for the black guy, if only so we can put a black in the big seat. I understand your being disgusted by the process and the people we have to choose from. However, I think a black man in the White House would bring some good things to the country, even if only in a psychological sense.

My district is going to overwhelmingly vote Obama whether I drop a ballot in or not. But I'll probably vote anyway. Obama has two things going for him:
1. Seems a more competent administrator than McCain.
2. Would improve America's image.

Those are the only two reasons I can think of for voting (Obama), actually.

Those are pretty good reasons in my opinion. Again, I understand holding your nose as it is, indeed, all cunt.

It's not even always disgust so much as irrelevance. I don't overlap with Republicans and Democrats hardly at all.

[Dr. Medulla]

For the record, I find Obama the least reprehensible/boring Democratic presidential candidate in my memory. Of course this is a bit of a rogues gallery:

Mondale
Dukakis
Clinton
Gore
Kerry

No indication of how he would have governed, but Gore's been much more respectable out of government. Carter, too.

My brother-in-law is a retired colonel in the Canadian army. For his last tour, during W's first term, he and my sister were stationed in D.C., where he taught at some military school. Anyway, one day Clinton spoke at the school. Now, all these officers were, by and large, right of centre (the American right of centre to boot), and my brother-in-law, himself a solid old fashioned conservative, said that Clinton had them all. He's never been around some who radiated such charisma, who could just own a room with seemingly so little effort. A mostly shitty president, but I don't think even Obama approaches Clinton's raw appeal. That said, a cousin my age is a lawyer and he met one of Obama's Harvard classmates at a conference and asked the guy what he was like. The classmate said that it never took long for someone meeting him to realize that Obama was one smart fucker and that he was destined for something big. Some people, they just got it.