Anarchism, Marxism and Radical Politics

[Dr. Medulla]

This is a great piece on the Far left to Far Right pipeline: https://inthesetimes.com/article/former ... hoe-theory

It mentions this move is sometimes erroneously referred to as "horseshoe theory" (the idea that the extreme ends of the political spectrum are indistinguishable from each other) and I've probably used the term myself for lack of a better articulation of whats going on, but it's a characterization that's really more about dismissing left wing politics from the center so it's not great. This piece, I think anyways, does a good job explaining what's really going on with some of these folks and why the trajectory is always left-to-right (you never see the far right move left, or seem indistinguishable from a marxist-leninist or whatever, as one would expect of "horseshoe theory" was what was really going on).

Anyways, good piece.

Very good conversation piece. For what it's worth, this observation—“People go where people accept them, or are nice to them, and away from people who are mean to them”—is where I lean, especially as it gets magnified by social media. In this, I'm recycling Richard Hofstadter's belief that status anxiety motivates such turns to authoritarian politics. A combination of evolving politics on the left that makes left-liberals no longer the ass-kissed darlings and an edgy option on the right that shares the scorn of the more identitarian left and you get the makings of a hot new romance.

I'll also chip in that for the most part I think the horseshoe theory just gets misapplied. It's a critical tool more than a handy overview. You use it with very specific questions in mind. For example, the status of the individual, where extreme left and right do share a view that individual rights should be subservient to the interests of the group (tho how group is defined differs), whereas liberalism occupies the opposite side. It doesn't mean that Communism and fascism are exactly the same, only that on that particular issue you can see common perspectives derived from a critique of liberal democracy. So horseshoe is fine, but use it judiciously.

I still think most people who flip tend to do it for personal selfish financial reasons.

Perhaps for those who can actually turn it into a good income—Taibbi or Wolfe, for example—but the average person likely doesn't see a change in their income.

Sure, but they just need to believe that it can improve their situation.

Yup, of course, tho for most people I think it's a therapeutic thing, that it makes them feel superior, especially against those who seemingly disregard them.

[Dr. Medulla]

https://thehardtimes.net/music/aging-an ... punk-band/

[Flex]

https://thehardtimes.net/music/aging-an ... punk-band/

They could have just said the dead kennedys and it would have been 100% accurate.

[Dr. Medulla]

https://thehardtimes.net/music/aging-an ... punk-band/

They could have just said the dead kennedys and it would have been 100% accurate.

Ha!

[gkbill]

https://thehardtimes.net/music/aging-an ... punk-band/

They could have just said the dead kennedys and it would have been 100% accurate.

Ha!

Hello,

This came to mind while reading:

‘If You Are Not a Liberal When You Are Young, You Have No Heart, and If You Are Not a Conservative When Old, You Have No Brain’

Although often attributed to Churchill, it was originally from Anselme Polycarpe Batbie.

[Silent Majority]

https://thehardtimes.net/music/aging-an ... punk-band/

They could have just said the dead kennedys and it would have been 100% accurate.

Ha!

Hello,

This came to mind while reading:

‘If You Are Not a Liberal When You Are Young, You Have No Heart, and If You Are Not a Conservative When Old, You Have No Brain’

Although often attributed to Churchill, it was originally from Anselme Polycarpe Batbie.

Now that the wealth doesn't leak down to the under 45s any more, we'll be soon seeing the end of the truism that people grow more conservative as they age.

[gkbill]

https://thehardtimes.net/music/aging-an ... punk-band/

They could have just said the dead kennedys and it would have been 100% accurate.

Ha!

Hello,

This came to mind while reading:

‘If You Are Not a Liberal When You Are Young, You Have No Heart, and If You Are Not a Conservative When Old, You Have No Brain’

Although often attributed to Churchill, it was originally from Anselme Polycarpe Batbie.

Now that the wealth doesn't leak down to the under 45s any more, we'll be soon seeing the end of the truism that people grow more conservative as they age.

Hello,

I don't think I'm that much more conservative as I've aged - rather, I think more deeply and react/respond less immediately. I'd still consider myself progressive but not as much of a yeller but possessing more of a logical/rational perspective - still leaning forward.

[Dr. Medulla]

https://thehardtimes.net/music/aging-an ... punk-band/

They could have just said the dead kennedys and it would have been 100% accurate.

Ha!

Hello,

This came to mind while reading:

‘If You Are Not a Liberal When You Are Young, You Have No Heart, and If You Are Not a Conservative When Old, You Have No Brain’

Although often attributed to Churchill, it was originally from Anselme Polycarpe Batbie.

Now that the wealth doesn't leak down to the under 45s any more, we'll be soon seeing the end of the truism that people grow more conservative as they age.

There have been various studies that have suggested it's always been a myth. Our values tend to get baked in in our youth, tho how they manifest will depend on the external events. For example, Boomer narcissism played out as cultural liberation in the 60s and 70s, but after that it meshed better with anti-social, economic selfishness. So it seems like Boomers went from left-leaning to right, but it was more a case of externalities dictating how their politics would be performed.

[revbob]

https://thehardtimes.net/music/aging-an ... punk-band/

They could have just said the dead kennedys and it would have been 100% accurate.

Ha!

Hello,

This came to mind while reading:

‘If You Are Not a Liberal When You Are Young, You Have No Heart, and If You Are Not a Conservative When Old, You Have No Brain’

Although often attributed to Churchill, it was originally from Anselme Polycarpe Batbie.

I always hated that saying.

Its BS, that or I have no brain, which I can live with.

[Flex]

https://thehardtimes.net/music/aging-an ... punk-band/

They could have just said the dead kennedys and it would have been 100% accurate.

Ha!

Hello,

This came to mind while reading:

‘If You Are Not a Liberal When You Are Young, You Have No Heart, and If You Are Not a Conservative When Old, You Have No Brain’

Although often attributed to Churchill, it was originally from Anselme Polycarpe Batbie.

Now that the wealth doesn't leak down to the under 45s any more, we'll be soon seeing the end of the truism that people grow more conservative as they age.

Not to pick on the saying too much more (or gkbill, sorry for the pile on! I really just mean this as sparking thoughts) but I also recall some generational surveying that people also don't move politically as much as the saying suggests. Most folks politics are formed from a combo of their parents and formative political experiences in their early 20s. After that, people's politics don't actually change a whole lot. Which isn't to say political affiliation doesn't move, but the Reagan or Sinatra heel turn isn't as common with most folks as one thinks.

Addendum: what doc said, I suppose

[gkbill]

They could have just said the dead kennedys and it would have been 100% accurate.

Ha!

Hello,

This came to mind while reading:

‘If You Are Not a Liberal When You Are Young, You Have No Heart, and If You Are Not a Conservative When Old, You Have No Brain’

Although often attributed to Churchill, it was originally from Anselme Polycarpe Batbie.

Now that the wealth doesn't leak down to the under 45s any more, we'll be soon seeing the end of the truism that people grow more conservative as they age.

Not to pick on the saying too much more (or gkbill, sorry for the pile on! I really just mean this as sparking thoughts) but I also recall some generational surveying that people also don't move politically as much as the saying suggests. Most folks politics are formed from a combo of their parents and formative political experiences in their early 20s. After that, people's politics don't actually change a whole lot. Which isn't to say political affiliation doesn't move, but the Reagan or Sinatra heel turn isn't as common with most folks as one thinks.

Hello,

I don't consider any of this piling on (if you want to pile on, go ahead) so I'm not bothered. I consider the statement as an observation. I feel it's true for many people. I don't keep in touch with many from my high school days, so I can't speak for them - it seems to describe many others I know. As I mentioned, I don't consider myself less liberal than I was when I was young but rather I tend to approach issues with a more considered take and the outcome is usually the same. If you're conservative, fine - convince me to adopt your viewpoint with your data.

[revbob]

I certainly wasn't piling on gkbill. I first heard that saying in my early 20s from a middle-aged lesbian as a justification of sorts for her being kind of conservative.

[Dr. Medulla]

[Flex]

Cheers. I just like to make.sure when there's, like, three responses in a row disagreeing with something (especially in the political thread) that it's clear it's not meant dickishly (or that it is )

I wonder if there's some function that the most politically vocal are also the most likely to change their views over the time. The masses of folks who think of politics pretty secondarily and talk about it less are also less inclined to change and reevaluate their views.

Also, I think to Maj's point there's a whole "material benefit" component to political views that may be getting a little short circuited. I actually think that the relationship between material interest (unless we describe "material interest" extremely broadly) and a political views isn't quite as strong as some marxists think, but it's definitely part of the stew.

[Flex]

A good quote for these purposes, but taken more literally and expansively it seems like it would have some alarmingly conservative implications around things like rehabilitative justice and whatnot.