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Re: The Reasons for Optimism Thread
Posted: 30 Jan 2017, 4:31pm
by Dr. Medulla
Kory wrote: ↑30 Jan 2017, 4:24pm
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑30 Jan 2017, 4:12pm
Kory wrote: ↑30 Jan 2017, 3:56pm
I'm fine with everybody living with dignity and comfort. I don't have any objection to that. But after talking to people online, reading thousands of comments, and talking to people in real life including my entire family, I just don't have any faith that people care about anything other than paranoid self-preservation paired with their need to control things that don't affect them. I see it a lot more than the opposite.
The key here is whether that shittiness is something inherent in human beings—something natural—or is it learned behaviour, the result of absorbing too uncritically ideologies that encourage that kind of nastiness. Leftists don't deny that ugliness in people; we just recognize it as something not intrinsic to human nature. It's about separating the sinner from the sin, to borrow inelegantly from religion. Which isn't to say that you can persuade all these people to let go of their bigotries, but to not inadvertently embrace the same kind of harsh, abstracting ideologies that denies a shared humanity.
Yeah I'll concede that I'm probably just getting discouraged.
And I get that—I have waves of that overcome me from time to time, especially the last several months—but not giving in on that point is beyond crucial.
Re: The Reasons for Optimism Thread
Posted: 31 Jan 2017, 8:20pm
by eumaas
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑30 Jan 2017, 4:31pm
Kory wrote: ↑30 Jan 2017, 4:24pm
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑30 Jan 2017, 4:12pm
Kory wrote: ↑30 Jan 2017, 3:56pm
I'm fine with everybody living with dignity and comfort. I don't have any objection to that. But after talking to people online, reading thousands of comments, and talking to people in real life including my entire family, I just don't have any faith that people care about anything other than paranoid self-preservation paired with their need to control things that don't affect them. I see it a lot more than the opposite.
The key here is whether that shittiness is something inherent in human beings—something natural—or is it learned behaviour, the result of absorbing too uncritically ideologies that encourage that kind of nastiness. Leftists don't deny that ugliness in people; we just recognize it as something not intrinsic to human nature. It's about separating the sinner from the sin, to borrow inelegantly from religion. Which isn't to say that you can persuade all these people to let go of their bigotries, but to not inadvertently embrace the same kind of harsh, abstracting ideologies that denies a shared humanity.
Yeah I'll concede that I'm probably just getting discouraged.
And I get that—I have waves of that overcome me from time to time, especially the last several months—but not giving in on that point is beyond crucial.
& despite how bad things are, the left is more vital than any time in my life
Re: The Reasons for Optimism Thread
Posted: 31 Jan 2017, 8:59pm
by Dr. Medulla
eumaas wrote: ↑31 Jan 2017, 8:20pm
& despite how bad things are, the left is more vital than any time in my life
Christ, yeah. My reading of things is that neoliberalism is pretty much dead, or dead on its feet, and Western nations are either going to go fascist/ authoritarian (i.e., fascist lite) or social democracy. The odds in the US are still against social democracy given the considerable structures of power and possessors of great wealth and influence, but it's more viable than any time since LBJ pissed the initiative away in Southeast Asia. If Strauss and Howe are right, here's the secular crisis, and I take comfort and hope that the Millennials who are supposed to do the heavy lifting in a crisis are more geared to social democracy. Sanders and Trump gave the pendulum a good push and it might yet end up on the humanist side of things.
How's that for optimism?
Re: The Reasons for Optimism Thread
Posted: 02 Feb 2017, 4:15pm
by BostonBeaneater
Re: The Reasons for Optimism Thread
Posted: 02 Feb 2017, 6:00pm
by Dr. Medulla
This is really taking on a 1859, 1860 kinda tone. And, frankly, what is the rationale for the United States as currently constituted to exist? The original 13 colonies banded together for, fundamentally, defensive reasons and expanded as part of growing a domestic market. But if there is such a profound disagreement between so-called red and blue states, what is the point of them being connected politically?
Re: The Reasons for Optimism Thread
Posted: 02 Feb 2017, 6:50pm
by BostonBeaneater
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑02 Feb 2017, 6:00pm
This is really taking on a 1859, 1860 kinda tone. And, frankly, what is the rationale for the United States as currently constituted to exist? The original 13 colonies banded together for, fundamentally, defensive reasons and expanded as part of growing a domestic market. But if there is such a profound disagreement between so-called red and blue states, what is the point of them being connected politically?
The Red States need us to fund them.
Re: The Reasons for Optimism Thread
Posted: 02 Feb 2017, 6:54pm
by Dr. Medulla
BostonBeaneater wrote: ↑02 Feb 2017, 6:50pm
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑02 Feb 2017, 6:00pm
This is really taking on a 1859, 1860 kinda tone. And, frankly, what is the rationale for the United States as currently constituted to exist? The original 13 colonies banded together for, fundamentally, defensive reasons and expanded as part of growing a domestic market. But if there is such a profound disagreement between so-called red and blue states, what is the point of them being connected politically?
The Red States need us to fund them.
And yet, if everyone is being sincere in their principles (ho ho, no, wait, let me finish), the boo-Washington, states-rights crowds in those Red states should support ending that kind of wealth redistribution.
Re: The Reasons for Optimism Thread
Posted: 02 Feb 2017, 6:57pm
by BostonBeaneater
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑02 Feb 2017, 6:54pm
And yet, if everyone is being sincere in their principles (ho ho, no, wait, let me finish), the boo-Washington, states-rights crowds in those Red states should support ending that kind of wealth redistribution.
It's OK unless the brown people get some.
Re: The Reasons for Optimism Thread
Posted: 02 Feb 2017, 7:17pm
by Dr. Medulla
BostonBeaneater wrote: ↑02 Feb 2017, 6:57pm
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑02 Feb 2017, 6:54pm
And yet, if everyone is being sincere in their principles (ho ho, no, wait, let me finish), the boo-Washington, states-rights crowds in those Red states should support ending that kind of wealth redistribution.
It's OK unless the brown people get some.
Fun fact: That idea plays well up here, too. When i was an undergrad, one of my profs was heading to my hometown to participate in a debate about proposed constitutional changes. He asked me what the people are like and I said, "Redneck socialists. Government programs are fine, but not for those lazy Injuns." He saw me a few days later and said, "You couldn't have been more right." The capacity for middle- and upper-class whites to not recognize the government handouts that keep them materially comfortable is astonishing.