Hey limeys

[Dr. Medulla]

I maintain that the veep picks are going to be more important than normal because I think either candidate has a decent chance of being impeached (with good cause).

[JennyB]

I maintain that the veep picks are going to be more important than normal because I think either candidate has a decent chance of being impeached (with good cause).

Good points made by everyone here.

[eumaas]

edit: nvm

[eumaas]

https://opendemocracy.net/uk/jamie-ster ... ism-scanda

[Dr. Medulla]

It's no surprise, I suppose, that Finkelstein is connected with this. Prominent critic of (mostly) right-wing Jews who use the Holocaust as a means-justify-the-ends (any ends) cloak. I've read his disemboweling of Goldhagen's Hitler's Willing Executioners and it's pretty satisfying (that is, reading Goldhagen I could crudely critique it, but Finkelstein did it in a more precise fashion). Despite being the child of Holocaust survivors, he's regularly labelled a self-loathing Jew.

[JennyB]

I would be lying if I didn't say that I am getting a little uncomfortable with this discussion via a vis the situation with Labour. I think there has been a lot of non-Jews telling us what is and what is not anti-semitism (not anyone here, just in general). Finkelstein is controversial because he has gone out of his way to vilify Jews whenever he gets the chance. I don't think his critics are solely on the right - many of us who lean left find him problematic as well.

[eumaas]

I would be lying if I didn't say that I am getting a little uncomfortable with this discussion via a vis the situation with Labour. I think there has been a lot of non-Jews telling us what is and what is not anti-semitism (not anyone here, just in general). Finkelstein is controversial because he has gone out of his way to vilify Jews whenever he gets the chance. I don't think his critics are solely on the right - many of us who lean left find him problematic as well.

I've never read Finkelstein. I'm still in final exams, so not enough time to comment at length.

[Marky Dread]

I would be lying if I didn't say that I am getting a little uncomfortable with this discussion via a vis the situation with Labour. I think there has been a lot of non-Jews telling us what is and what is not anti-semitism (not anyone here, just in general). Finkelstein is controversial because he has gone out of his way to vilify Jews whenever he gets the chance. I don't think his critics are solely on the right - many of us who lean left find him problematic as well.

I just read the article eumaas posted and I admit I had not heard of they guy before. He comes across to me as an intelligent guy who thinks he knows more than anyone else on this issue. Jew or non-Jew no one has a right to tell someone how and why they should feel the way they do. It is such a delicate issue with lots of views from opposing sides. The sad thing to me regarding this "anti-antisemitism" is not the real issue here in British politics as it's cheaply being used as nothing more than a mud slinging competition between the two main parties. As usual with British politics peoples feelings are put second in a political war to score points.

[Dr. Medulla]

I would be lying if I didn't say that I am getting a little uncomfortable with this discussion via a vis the situation with Labour. I think there has been a lot of non-Jews telling us what is and what is not anti-semitism (not anyone here, just in general). Finkelstein is controversial because he has gone out of his way to vilify Jews whenever he gets the chance. I don't think his critics are solely on the right - many of us who lean left find him problematic as well.

If you're up for it, I'd be interested in hearing your critique of NF. I've only read his critique of Goldhagen and a couple other pieces surrounding their sniping, as well as academic politics (he was denied tenure at one point). But don't feel obliged, either, if it's an uncomfortable subject.

[Marky Dread]

I would be lying if I didn't say that I am getting a little uncomfortable with this discussion via a vis the situation with Labour. I think there has been a lot of non-Jews telling us what is and what is not anti-semitism (not anyone here, just in general). Finkelstein is controversial because he has gone out of his way to vilify Jews whenever he gets the chance. I don't think his critics are solely on the right - many of us who lean left find him problematic as well.

If you're up for it, I'd be interested in hearing your critique of NF. I've only read his critique of Goldhagen and a couple other pieces surrounding their sniping, as well as academic politics (he was denied tenure at one point). But don't feel obliged, either, if it's an uncomfortable subject.

Wow those are some initials.

[Dr. Medulla]

I would be lying if I didn't say that I am getting a little uncomfortable with this discussion via a vis the situation with Labour. I think there has been a lot of non-Jews telling us what is and what is not anti-semitism (not anyone here, just in general). Finkelstein is controversial because he has gone out of his way to vilify Jews whenever he gets the chance. I don't think his critics are solely on the right - many of us who lean left find him problematic as well.

If you're up for it, I'd be interested in hearing your critique of NF. I've only read his critique of Goldhagen and a couple other pieces surrounding their sniping, as well as academic politics (he was denied tenure at one point). But don't feel obliged, either, if it's an uncomfortable subject.

Wow those are some initials.

Wait … what am I missing?

[Marky Dread]

I would be lying if I didn't say that I am getting a little uncomfortable with this discussion via a vis the situation with Labour. I think there has been a lot of non-Jews telling us what is and what is not anti-semitism (not anyone here, just in general). Finkelstein is controversial because he has gone out of his way to vilify Jews whenever he gets the chance. I don't think his critics are solely on the right - many of us who lean left find him problematic as well.

If you're up for it, I'd be interested in hearing your critique of NF. I've only read his critique of Goldhagen and a couple other pieces surrounding their sniping, as well as academic politics (he was denied tenure at one point). But don't feel obliged, either, if it's an uncomfortable subject.

Wow those are some initials.

Wait … what am I missing?

NF = National Front

[Dr. Medulla]

I would be lying if I didn't say that I am getting a little uncomfortable with this discussion via a vis the situation with Labour. I think there has been a lot of non-Jews telling us what is and what is not anti-semitism (not anyone here, just in general). Finkelstein is controversial because he has gone out of his way to vilify Jews whenever he gets the chance. I don't think his critics are solely on the right - many of us who lean left find him problematic as well.

If you're up for it, I'd be interested in hearing your critique of NF. I've only read his critique of Goldhagen and a couple other pieces surrounding their sniping, as well as academic politics (he was denied tenure at one point). But don't feel obliged, either, if it's an uncomfortable subject.

Wow those are some initials.

Wait … what am I missing?

NF = National Front

Given that this is an official Limey thread, that makes sense.

[JennyB]

I would be lying if I didn't say that I am getting a little uncomfortable with this discussion via a vis the situation with Labour. I think there has been a lot of non-Jews telling us what is and what is not anti-semitism (not anyone here, just in general). Finkelstein is controversial because he has gone out of his way to vilify Jews whenever he gets the chance. I don't think his critics are solely on the right - many of us who lean left find him problematic as well.

If you're up for it, I'd be interested in hearing your critique of NF. I've only read his critique of Goldhagen and a couple other pieces surrounding their sniping, as well as academic politics (he was denied tenure at one point). But don't feel obliged, either, if it's an uncomfortable subject.

It's been a long time since I read his book, but my main beef is that to me, he gets to make the rules on who gets to take ownership on Holocaust suffering. There are issues in my own life that, while, I can't directly blame on the Holocaust, I know it's there. For example, I suffered with severe bulimia for many years. My mom has very disordered eating (she is borderline anorexic) and spent my whole childhood pressuring me to be skinny. And that came directly from her mom's trauma. I never blame this directly on the Holocaust, but it was one of the ramifications for my family. Maybe I totally misinterpreted his book, but I felt like he was doing exactly what he himself was criticizing. He also publicly supported Hezbollah.

My biggest discomfort these days though is people hiding behind anti-Zionism and immediately getting defensive if they are labeled an anti Semite. There's very little room for nuance in the anti-Zionist left. An example of this happened a few months back. I was at a Freedom of Choice Council meeting where we were planning a Roe v Wade Anniversary event. I offered space at the synagogue (a very, very lefty synagogue) where I used to work. A couple of the group members said "no fucking way" because the rabbi supports Israel. Now, this rabbi is a VERY left wing Zionist who has been calling for a end to the occupation for forty years. She supports Israel's right to exist, but only alongside a sovereign Palestinian state. But they just see her as an evil Zionist. This is also someone who has been on the front lines of the reproductive justice movement for 45 years. This was a Roe v Wade celebration. Nothing to do with Israel, but they made it all about Israel.

[Dr. Medulla]

It's been a long time since I read his book, but my main beef is that to me, he gets to make the rules on who gets to take ownership on Holocaust suffering.

Which does speak to the inevitable politicization of the Holocaust—both sides tend to up the ante and seek to discredit the other's right to define the event. There does come to a point where some conversations really can't be had anymore until whole generations die off and those more disconnected can begin again.

There are issues in my own life that, while, I can't directly blame on the Holocaust, I know it's there. For example, I suffered with severe bulimia for many years. My mom has very disordered eating (she is borderline anorexic) and spent my whole childhood pressuring me to be skinny. And that came directly from her mom's trauma. I never blame this directly on the Holocaust, but it was one of the ramifications for my family. Maybe I totally misinterpreted his book, but I felt like he was doing exactly what he himself was criticizing.

Those are the kinds of ramifications of historical trauma, of the indirect, almost spooky power it has. It's one think to declare that you have no power because of what happened 70+ years ago, but ridiculous to think that that stuff doesn't get transmitted and impact how you grew up and how you live your life now. It gets diluted by all the other experiences a person has in their life, but it's there nonetheless. I'm fond of Faulkner's observation, "The past is never dead; it's not even past"—it realizes that the world didn't begin at our birth, that we're carrying with us shit—good and bad—from well before we came onto the scene and need to temper both our hubris as self-guiding and lack of compassion for those who are nevertheless shackled by events they never witnessed or participated in.

My biggest discomfort these days though is people hiding behind anti-Zionism and immediately getting defensive if they are labeled an anti Semite. There's very little room for nuance in the anti-Zionist left. An example of this happened a few months back. I was at a Freedom of Choice Council meeting where we were planning a Roe v Wade Anniversary event. I offered space at the synagogue (a very, very lefty synagogue) where I used to work. A couple of the group members said "no fucking way" because the rabbi supports Israel. Now, this rabbi is a VERY left wing Zionist who has been calling for a end to the occupation for forty years. She supports Israel's right to exist, but only alongside a sovereign Palestinian state. But they just see her as an evil Zionist. This is also someone who has been on the front lines of the reproductive justice movement for 45 years. This was a Roe v Wade celebration. Nothing to do with Israel, but they made it all about Israel.

Yup, that nasty polarization again. Any effort to pursue nuance gets labelled as waffling or selling out to the other side (whichever side that may be). I've been at social gatherings of vaguely lefty kinds of people (champagne socialists, really) and how the rhetoric of critiquing Israel's policies re. Palestinians ends up laced with anti-Semitism, where all Jews must somehow support the government of Israel's policies. One of those things where I just retreat inside and play music in my head until I can leave.