Star Trek

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BostonBeaneater
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Re: Star Trek

Post by BostonBeaneater »

I hope Q continues to harass him during his retirement.
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Dr. Medulla
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Re: Star Trek

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"I, Borg" is on right now. Christ but Picard and Riker are quick to endorse genocide. As in bloodless logic, no regrets (rather Borglike in that respect). Crusher is the only one with a conscience. Even Picard's change of heart comes from Hugh expressing an individualist perspective, so wiping out collective societies is seemingly still on the table. By all rights, Picard's and Riker's standing with at least some fans should be seriously compromised.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Kory
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Re: Star Trek

Post by Kory »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Aug 2018, 3:22pm
"I, Borg" is on right now. Christ but Picard and Riker are quick to endorse genocide. As in bloodless logic, no regrets (rather Borglike in that respect). Crusher is the only one with a conscience. Even Picard's change of heart comes from Hugh expressing an individualist perspective, so wiping out collective societies is seemingly still on the table. By all rights, Picard's and Riker's standing with at least some fans should be seriously compromised.
Aren't the Borg kind of like a humanoid space virus though?
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BostonBeaneater
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Re: Star Trek

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Aug 2018, 3:22pm
"I, Borg" is on right now. Christ but Picard and Riker are quick to endorse genocide. As in bloodless logic, no regrets (rather Borglike in that respect). Crusher is the only one with a conscience. Even Picard's change of heart comes from Hugh expressing an individualist perspective, so wiping out collective societies is seemingly still on the table. By all rights, Picard's and Riker's standing with at least some fans should be seriously compromised.
They earned it just like the Japanese.

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Dr. Medulla
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Re: Star Trek

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Kory wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 3:10pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Aug 2018, 3:22pm
"I, Borg" is on right now. Christ but Picard and Riker are quick to endorse genocide. As in bloodless logic, no regrets (rather Borglike in that respect). Crusher is the only one with a conscience. Even Picard's change of heart comes from Hugh expressing an individualist perspective, so wiping out collective societies is seemingly still on the table. By all rights, Picard's and Riker's standing with at least some fans should be seriously compromised.
Aren't the Borg kind of like a humanoid space virus though?
It's that kind of rationalization, tho, that facillitates a genocidal solution. Denying any connection, any shared quality between you and your enemy makes it easier to assert a different set of rules between you and them, including those that cover the morality of genocide. Given that Starfleet is supposed to represent the greatest of humanity's values and this search to meet other peoples, Picard and Riker way too quickly and remorselessly go to genocide. It's that almost eagerness that is so offputting.
Last edited by Dr. Medulla on 08 Aug 2018, 4:10pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

BostonBeaneater
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Re: Star Trek

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 3:45pm
Kory wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 3:10pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Aug 2018, 3:22pm
"I, Borg" is on right now. Christ but Picard and Riker are quick to endorse genocide. As in bloodless logic, no regrets (rather Borglike in that respect). Crusher is the only one with a conscience. Even Picard's change of heart comes from Hugh expressing an individualist perspective, so wiping out collective societies is seemingly still on the table. By all rights, Picard's and Riker's standing with at least some fans should be seriously compromised.
Aren't the Borg kind of like a humanoid space virus though?
It's that kind of rationalization, tho, that facillitates a genocidal solution. Denying any connection, any shared quality between you and your enemy makes it easier to assert a different set of rules between you and them, including those that say genocide is wrong. Given that Starfleet is supposed to represent the greatest of humanity's values and this search to meet other peoples, Picard and Riker way too quickly and remorselessly go to genocide. It's that almost eagerness that is so offputting.
I have to disagree. Threats like the Borg or like Trump need a swift clock in the jaw and a swift neutering.
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Re: Star Trek

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BostonBeaneater wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 4:10pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 3:45pm
Kory wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 3:10pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Aug 2018, 3:22pm
"I, Borg" is on right now. Christ but Picard and Riker are quick to endorse genocide. As in bloodless logic, no regrets (rather Borglike in that respect). Crusher is the only one with a conscience. Even Picard's change of heart comes from Hugh expressing an individualist perspective, so wiping out collective societies is seemingly still on the table. By all rights, Picard's and Riker's standing with at least some fans should be seriously compromised.
Aren't the Borg kind of like a humanoid space virus though?
It's that kind of rationalization, tho, that facillitates a genocidal solution. Denying any connection, any shared quality between you and your enemy makes it easier to assert a different set of rules between you and them, including those that say genocide is wrong. Given that Starfleet is supposed to represent the greatest of humanity's values and this search to meet other peoples, Picard and Riker way too quickly and remorselessly go to genocide. It's that almost eagerness that is so offputting.
I have to disagree. Threats like the Borg or like Trump need a swift clock in the jaw and a swift neutering.
Maybe. A genuine existential threat would justify that extreme action, but the Borg at that point weren't that threat. And, again, Picard goes straight to genocide—no reflection, no soul searching.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

BostonBeaneater
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Re: Star Trek

Post by BostonBeaneater »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 4:13pm
BostonBeaneater wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 4:10pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 3:45pm
Kory wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 3:10pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Aug 2018, 3:22pm
"I, Borg" is on right now. Christ but Picard and Riker are quick to endorse genocide. As in bloodless logic, no regrets (rather Borglike in that respect). Crusher is the only one with a conscience. Even Picard's change of heart comes from Hugh expressing an individualist perspective, so wiping out collective societies is seemingly still on the table. By all rights, Picard's and Riker's standing with at least some fans should be seriously compromised.
Aren't the Borg kind of like a humanoid space virus though?
It's that kind of rationalization, tho, that facillitates a genocidal solution. Denying any connection, any shared quality between you and your enemy makes it easier to assert a different set of rules between you and them, including those that say genocide is wrong. Given that Starfleet is supposed to represent the greatest of humanity's values and this search to meet other peoples, Picard and Riker way too quickly and remorselessly go to genocide. It's that almost eagerness that is so offputting.
I have to disagree. Threats like the Borg or like Trump need a swift clock in the jaw and a swift neutering.
Maybe. A genuine existential threat would justify that extreme action, but the Borg at that point weren't that threat. And, again, Picard goes straight to genocide—no reflection, no soul searching.
Didn't Guinan warn him what they were all about? It wasn't like he opted to kill them during a mixer at 10 Forward.
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Dr. Medulla
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Re: Star Trek

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BostonBeaneater wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 4:27pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 4:13pm
BostonBeaneater wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 4:10pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 3:45pm
Kory wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 3:10pm


Aren't the Borg kind of like a humanoid space virus though?
It's that kind of rationalization, tho, that facillitates a genocidal solution. Denying any connection, any shared quality between you and your enemy makes it easier to assert a different set of rules between you and them, including those that say genocide is wrong. Given that Starfleet is supposed to represent the greatest of humanity's values and this search to meet other peoples, Picard and Riker way too quickly and remorselessly go to genocide. It's that almost eagerness that is so offputting.
I have to disagree. Threats like the Borg or like Trump need a swift clock in the jaw and a swift neutering.
Maybe. A genuine existential threat would justify that extreme action, but the Borg at that point weren't that threat. And, again, Picard goes straight to genocide—no reflection, no soul searching.
Didn't Guinan warn him what they were all about? It wasn't like he opted to kill them during a mixer at 10 Forward.
As I recall, he came up with the idea fairly early into the episode, but fencing with Guinan confirmed the wisdom of his plan after Crusher introduced some doubt. But where Guinan is motivate by revenge, Picard comes off as more bloodless in his rationale. At one point, he angrily tells Geordi that the Borg is a thing, not a person.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Flex
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Re: Star Trek

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some TNG colony dork: Hey, we really need some power converters to run our agricultural colony, but these seemingly hostile but perhaps simply misunderstood energy space beasts are in the way of them.

Riker: Whelp, gotta wipe 'em all out. It's the only way.

STNGCD: Uhhhh, what? No, we don't need them wiped out. Just like... fly around them and pick up the converters.

Picard: What? No, we mean we have to wipe out the colony. And the space beasts. We're wiping you all out. Because we're enlightened.
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Re: Star Trek

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 4:41pm
As I recall, he came up with the idea fairly early into the episode, but fencing with Guinan confirmed the wisdom of his plan after Crusher introduced some doubt. But where Guinan is motivate by revenge, Picard comes off as more bloodless in his rationale. At one point, he angrily tells Geordi that the Borg is a thing, not a person.
I think you're right to critique Picard and Riker this way overall, but Picard is also dealing with it from a place of trauma - I recall the episode makes pretty clear how colored he is in his perceptions from his experience as Locutus.

I have a DVD set somewhere (probably in storage) that collected all the Borg episodes in various Trek series. The TNG stuff was interesting since it was so character driven by Picard and how his views of the Borg changed over time.
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Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
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Dr. Medulla
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Re: Star Trek

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Flex wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 5:03pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 4:41pm
As I recall, he came up with the idea fairly early into the episode, but fencing with Guinan confirmed the wisdom of his plan after Crusher introduced some doubt. But where Guinan is motivate by revenge, Picard comes off as more bloodless in his rationale. At one point, he angrily tells Geordi that the Borg is a thing, not a person.
I think you're right to critique Picard and Riker this way overall, but Picard is also dealing with it from a place of trauma - I recall the episode makes pretty clear how colored he is in his perceptions from his experience as Locutus.
Granted. He does draw from his experience, but the degree that trauma informs his view is pretty open to interpretation. I wonder, tho, if the trauma angle better explains him backing away from the plan, of appreciating that he would be victimizing Hugh in the same way he was. Perhaps.
I have a DVD set somewhere (probably in storage) that collected all the Borg episodes in various Trek series. The TNG stuff was interesting since it was so character driven by Picard and how his views of the Borg changed over time.
It's kinda a testament to Voyager's overall limp quality that it made the Borg painfully dull. The only episode that comes to mind that was interesting was when they found some Borg device and it caused 36 of D to experience the personalities of people who had been assimilated.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Kory
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Re: Star Trek

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 4:13pm
BostonBeaneater wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 4:10pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 3:45pm
Kory wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 3:10pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
07 Aug 2018, 3:22pm
"I, Borg" is on right now. Christ but Picard and Riker are quick to endorse genocide. As in bloodless logic, no regrets (rather Borglike in that respect). Crusher is the only one with a conscience. Even Picard's change of heart comes from Hugh expressing an individualist perspective, so wiping out collective societies is seemingly still on the table. By all rights, Picard's and Riker's standing with at least some fans should be seriously compromised.
Aren't the Borg kind of like a humanoid space virus though?
It's that kind of rationalization, tho, that facillitates a genocidal solution. Denying any connection, any shared quality between you and your enemy makes it easier to assert a different set of rules between you and them, including those that say genocide is wrong. Given that Starfleet is supposed to represent the greatest of humanity's values and this search to meet other peoples, Picard and Riker way too quickly and remorselessly go to genocide. It's that almost eagerness that is so offputting.
I have to disagree. Threats like the Borg or like Trump need a swift clock in the jaw and a swift neutering.
Maybe. A genuine existential threat would justify that extreme action, but the Borg at that point weren't that threat. And, again, Picard goes straight to genocide—no reflection, no soul searching.
I haven't seen this ep in ages—why were they not a threat at that time? Were they in hiding or something?
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Dr. Medulla
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Re: Star Trek

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Kory wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 5:31pm
I haven't seen this ep in ages—why were they not a threat at that time? Were they in hiding or something?
I don't think they'd been seen since Best of Both Worlds. They're a threat, yes, but an “omigosh if we don't act now and in this radical way” threat? No way. In the TNG sphere, BoBW pretty much ends the Borg's immediate threat, and the next couple encounters don't make them out to be that dire. Picard and Riker go into a crisis mode like Americans who thought the US needed to nuke Moscow asap.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Flex
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Re: Star Trek

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 6:01pm
I don't think they'd been seen since Best of Both Worlds. They're a threat, yes, but an “omigosh if we don't act now and in this radical way” threat? No way. In the TNG sphere, BoBW pretty much ends the Borg's immediate threat, and the next couple encounters don't make them out to be that dire. Picard and Riker go into a crisis mode like Americans who thought the US needed to nuke Moscow asap.
I'd rather be a Borg than a Democrat!
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead

Pex Lives!

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