Thatcher dead.

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Low Down Low
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Re: Thatcher dead.

Post by Low Down Low »

revbob wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 11:55am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 10:21am
Image
Where do I get a copy
I honestly don't know, but i dearly wish i had shares in it because folk are begging to play it now. Would pay the energy bills over winter at the very least!

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Re: Thatcher dead.

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Low Down Low wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 12:24pm
revbob wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 11:55am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 10:21am
Image
Where do I get a copy
I honestly don't know, but i dearly wish i had shares in it because folk are begging to play it now. Would pay the energy bills over winter at the very least!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thatcher%27s_Techbase
"And so the sailor goes, 'I don’t know, but it’s driving me nuts!'” - Woodrow Wilson to David Lloyd George, Paris Peace Conference, 1 February 1919

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Re: Thatcher dead.

Post by Marky Dread »

Thatcher's not dead.
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Re: Thatcher dead.

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Marky Dread wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 5:24pm
Thatcher's not dead.
Such a cruel, pinched face.
"And so the sailor goes, 'I don’t know, but it’s driving me nuts!'” - Woodrow Wilson to David Lloyd George, Paris Peace Conference, 1 February 1919

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Re: Thatcher dead.

Post by JennyB »

Marky Dread wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 11:51am
Low Down Low wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 11:36am
Marky Dread wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 11:14am
Corbyn's biggest failure was not acting quick enough to stop the anti-semitism that had crept into the Labour party. That was a massive error of judgement.
I thought the Labour Files doc on Al Jazeera over the weekend made for some very interesting but uncomfortable viewing. I think Corbyn made mistakes for sure, but when he states it was exaggerated for factional issues, it seems hard to disagree. The Gen Sec of the party, hostile to Corbyn, actually stated that himself early on.
Sure Corbyn was in for a rough ride. And just how much anti-semitism had occurred isn't the issue. There should be no anti-semitism period. Jewish Labour supporters were unhappy and he had a chance to act and chose not to which was very disappointing.
Laying a wreath on the tomb of Hezbollah terrorists wasn't a great look, either. I have cousins who were longtime Labour supporters and were terrified of Corbyn and and saddened about what he turned the party into. Nothing he or his followers have done have made inroads in helping Palestinians, either.
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Re: Thatcher dead.

Post by Marky Dread »

JennyB wrote:
27 Sep 2022, 6:52pm
Marky Dread wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 11:51am
Low Down Low wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 11:36am
Marky Dread wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 11:14am
Corbyn's biggest failure was not acting quick enough to stop the anti-semitism that had crept into the Labour party. That was a massive error of judgement.
I thought the Labour Files doc on Al Jazeera over the weekend made for some very interesting but uncomfortable viewing. I think Corbyn made mistakes for sure, but when he states it was exaggerated for factional issues, it seems hard to disagree. The Gen Sec of the party, hostile to Corbyn, actually stated that himself early on.
Sure Corbyn was in for a rough ride. And just how much anti-semitism had occurred isn't the issue. There should be no anti-semitism period. Jewish Labour supporters were unhappy and he had a chance to act and chose not to which was very disappointing.
Laying a wreath on the tomb of Hezbollah terrorists wasn't a great look, either. I have cousins who were longtime Labour supporters and were terrified of Corbyn and and saddened about what he turned the party into. Nothing he or his followers have done have made inroads in helping Palestinians, either.
Exactly JB. I think if you care then you should show you care by positive actions. I was extremely disappointed in Corbyn for his lack of action.
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Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

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Re: Thatcher dead.

Post by JennyB »

Marky Dread wrote:
28 Sep 2022, 5:04am
JennyB wrote:
27 Sep 2022, 6:52pm
Marky Dread wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 11:51am
Low Down Low wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 11:36am
Marky Dread wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 11:14am
Corbyn's biggest failure was not acting quick enough to stop the anti-semitism that had crept into the Labour party. That was a massive error of judgement.
I thought the Labour Files doc on Al Jazeera over the weekend made for some very interesting but uncomfortable viewing. I think Corbyn made mistakes for sure, but when he states it was exaggerated for factional issues, it seems hard to disagree. The Gen Sec of the party, hostile to Corbyn, actually stated that himself early on.
Sure Corbyn was in for a rough ride. And just how much anti-semitism had occurred isn't the issue. There should be no anti-semitism period. Jewish Labour supporters were unhappy and he had a chance to act and chose not to which was very disappointing.
Laying a wreath on the tomb of Hezbollah terrorists wasn't a great look, either. I have cousins who were longtime Labour supporters and were terrified of Corbyn and and saddened about what he turned the party into. Nothing he or his followers have done have made inroads in helping Palestinians, either.
Exactly JB. I think if you care then you should show you care by positive actions. I was extremely disappointed in Corbyn for his lack of action.
Thank you, Marky.
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Re: Thatcher dead.

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JennyB wrote:
27 Sep 2022, 6:52pm
Laying a wreath on the tomb of Hezbollah terrorists wasn't a great look, either. I have cousins who were longtime Labour supporters and were terrified of Corbyn and and saddened about what he turned the party into. Nothing he or his followers have done have made inroads in helping Palestinians, either.
I meant to respond to this yesterday. I remember you mentioning this towards the last rocky days of his leadership of the party. I agree with Marky that his response suggested, at best, an indifference bred of skepticism that these could be legitimate complaints. I'm an outsider in multiple senses to this discussion (not british, not a labour member, not jewish) so it's an issue where I largely try to stay in my lane, but as a third party observer I'll admit it doesn't seem like these complaints - or the voices of jewish labour supporters like your cousins - were treated very seriously in either direction. Most of the people leading the charge against Corbyn and anti-semitism seemed very, very clearly to be using the issue in a deeply cynical way, to tar a pivot leftwards by the party. On the other hand, at best Corbyn engaged in some really shitty optics himself at times and then failed to move quickly to root out whatever anti-semitic animus existed/exists within the party until his hand was essentially forced to try to do something. I mean, if nothing else, letting yourself be subjected to external pressures like that rather than taking the lead and getting control of the situation represents a pretty large failure in leadership from him, it seems to me. I'm disinclined to think Corbyn himself was motivated by what we would broadly call anti-semitism, there are enough people whose judgment I trust active in labour who swear up and down this isn't the case, but I can't say that I've heard too many compelling arguments that he did everything he could to address the issue and took it seriously enough. And my timeline is, of course, full of people who insist it was never an issue at all, which seems a disappointing response when you have actual jewish labour folks saying "there's at least some fire here with all this smoke." Again, all as an outside observer here (and not having seen the above mentioned documentary).

I think there are some strategic lessons to be learned for the left about having to anticipate and prepare for unfair smearing by your political opponents, and how to neutralize those smears. One way, it seems to me, is to make sure those smears are actually unfounded. There's almost nothing more credibility-destroying than there being even a kernel of truth to accusations of misconduct levied against the left. And it's not fair! The right gets away with murder regularly, both figuratively and literally, and the media and public break their backs bending backwards to excuse and rehabilitate the right as much as possible. But tough shit, life's not fair. Any left leader has to price into their conduct the acceptance that they're going to be scrutinized with the finest tooth comb possible and every action they take will be given the most uncharitable interpretation that can be imagined. Any serious left leader or movement needs to have thoughtful plans to overcome this handicap, or they're not serious or credible left leaders and movements. And - and I think it's worth emphasizing - if you are being charged with anti-semitism one of the best things you can do is make sure there aren't any actual anti-semites in your party. I'm sure the prevalence was overblown, I'm sure actions were read in the most uncharitable light possible, and there's a fine line between anticipating criticisms and bowing to unfounded pressure, but you have to thread that needle. Even if you can't win over The Times, you have to at least be able to be responsive to the concerns of your own party supporters. I don't see how Corbyn could have hoped to build the socialist project rooted in solidarity if at least some his own party's jewish supporters were afraid of what was happening. I agree with Corbyn on a bunch of stuff, and I was hopeful for what he could do as labour leader, but - again and for the final time, as a third party observer - what I saw was a pretty weak leader who lacked the ability to grow the movement in a hostile environment and, perhaps out of stubbornness or indifference, failed to adequately address what should be a core concern of any left project, which is rooting out anti-semitism, no matter how big or small that cancer has manifested itself.
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Re: Thatcher dead.

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Anyways, it's still awesome that Thatcher is dead.
In the words of Jean-Paul Sartre: "Au revoir, gopher."

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Re: Thatcher dead.

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Flex wrote:
28 Sep 2022, 12:26pm
Anyways, it's still awesome that Thatcher is dead.
you can kill a Tory, but you can't kill an idea. Sadly.
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Forces have been looting
My humanity
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The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

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Re: Thatcher dead.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

And I will always smile at the fact that our buddy Purple Hayes lived to see her put into the cold ground and that he had a few months of breathing air that she wasn't contaminating.
"And so the sailor goes, 'I don’t know, but it’s driving me nuts!'” - Woodrow Wilson to David Lloyd George, Paris Peace Conference, 1 February 1919

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Re: Thatcher dead.

Post by revbob »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Sep 2022, 1:01pm
And I will always smile at the fact that our buddy Purple Hayes lived to see her put into the cold ground and that he had a few months of breathing air that she wasn't contaminating.
Absolutely.

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Re: Thatcher dead.

Post by Marky Dread »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Sep 2022, 1:01pm
And I will always smile at the fact that our buddy Purple Hayes lived to see her put into the cold ground and that he had a few months of breathing air that she wasn't contaminating.
Yeah I know he would've been well chuffed about that. Hope you're having a blast wherever you are Rob.
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Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

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Re: Thatcher dead.

Post by JennyB »

Flex wrote:
28 Sep 2022, 12:22pm
JennyB wrote:
27 Sep 2022, 6:52pm
Laying a wreath on the tomb of Hezbollah terrorists wasn't a great look, either. I have cousins who were longtime Labour supporters and were terrified of Corbyn and and saddened about what he turned the party into. Nothing he or his followers have done have made inroads in helping Palestinians, either.
I meant to respond to this yesterday. I remember you mentioning this towards the last rocky days of his leadership of the party. I agree with Marky that his response suggested, at best, an indifference bred of skepticism that these could be legitimate complaints. I'm an outsider in multiple senses to this discussion (not british, not a labour member, not jewish) so it's an issue where I largely try to stay in my lane, but as a third party observer I'll admit it doesn't seem like these complaints - or the voices of jewish labour supporters like your cousins - were treated very seriously in either direction. Most of the people leading the charge against Corbyn and anti-semitism seemed very, very clearly to be using the issue in a deeply cynical way, to tar a pivot leftwards by the party. On the other hand, at best Corbyn engaged in some really shitty optics himself at times and then failed to move quickly to root out whatever anti-semitic animus existed/exists within the party until his hand was essentially forced to try to do something. I mean, if nothing else, letting yourself be subjected to external pressures like that rather than taking the lead and getting control of the situation represents a pretty large failure in leadership from him, it seems to me. I'm disinclined to think Corbyn himself was motivated by what we would broadly call anti-semitism, there are enough people whose judgment I trust active in labour who swear up and down this isn't the case, but I can't say that I've heard too many compelling arguments that he did everything he could to address the issue and took it seriously enough. And my timeline is, of course, full of people who insist it was never an issue at all, which seems a disappointing response when you have actual jewish labour folks saying "there's at least some fire here with all this smoke." Again, all as an outside observer here (and not having seen the above mentioned documentary).

I think there are some strategic lessons to be learned for the left about having to anticipate and prepare for unfair smearing by your political opponents, and how to neutralize those smears. One way, it seems to me, is to make sure those smears are actually unfounded. There's almost nothing more credibility-destroying than there being even a kernel of truth to accusations of misconduct levied against the left. And it's not fair! The right gets away with murder regularly, both figuratively and literally, and the media and public break their backs bending backwards to excuse and rehabilitate the right as much as possible. But tough shit, life's not fair. Any left leader has to price into their conduct the acceptance that they're going to be scrutinized with the finest tooth comb possible and every action they take will be given the most uncharitable interpretation that can be imagined. Any serious left leader or movement needs to have thoughtful plans to overcome this handicap, or they're not serious or credible left leaders and movements. And - and I think it's worth emphasizing - if you are being charged with anti-semitism one of the best things you can do is make sure there aren't any actual anti-semites in your party. I'm sure the prevalence was overblown, I'm sure actions were read in the most uncharitable light possible, and there's a fine line between anticipating criticisms and bowing to unfounded pressure, but you have to thread that needle. Even if you can't win over The Times, you have to at least be able to be responsive to the concerns of your own party supporters. I don't see how Corbyn could have hoped to build the socialist project rooted in solidarity if at least some his own party's jewish supporters were afraid of what was happening. I agree with Corbyn on a bunch of stuff, and I was hopeful for what he could do as labour leader, but - again and for the final time, as a third party observer - what I saw was a pretty weak leader who lacked the ability to grow the movement in a hostile environment and, perhaps out of stubbornness or indifference, failed to adequately address what should be a core concern of any left project, which is rooting out anti-semitism, no matter how big or small that cancer has manifested itself.
Thank you for that thoughtful response. I agree with pretty much everything you said here.
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Re: Thatcher dead.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Regarding Corbyn/antisemitism, I'll just throw in that it reflects, too, the prevalent currency of antisemitic tropes or assumptions that some on the left still draw from. That is, when the left, generally speaking, chose to embrace the Palestinian side in the conflict with Israel, too many chose to apply the language of antisemitism in their advocacy. Instead of criticizing Israel as a state actor on policy grounds and anti-colonial language, they instead substitute Jews and Jewish character to express their opposition. I think it is possible to read this *somewhat* benignly, in that critics of the American state will often describe it in ways that allude to the American people and their character (or Russians or Japanese or … etc). It's sloppy language to make a people a monolith and equate them with the actions of their government regardless of the nation, but the deep history of antisemitism and its presence in language makes it absolutely vital to be smarter and sensitive when critiquing the Israeli state. (That militant Palestinians are genuinely antisemitic should also make defenders of Palestinians pause about who they're sharing a political bed with and choose their words and positions more carefully.) Whether due to thinking some antisemitic tropes are true (e.g., Jews have too darn much influence in politics, business, culture, etc) or not appreciating the significance of their words, they end up reproducing ugly slurs. As Flex suggested above, the right gets away with so much more obvious language and conduct, so the left needs to be more disciplined and demanding of itself to eliminate that kind of thought and expression.
"And so the sailor goes, 'I don’t know, but it’s driving me nuts!'” - Woodrow Wilson to David Lloyd George, Paris Peace Conference, 1 February 1919

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