Bernard Rhodes at the British Library

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Dr. Medulla
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Re: Bernard Rhodes at the British Library

Post by Dr. Medulla » 13 May 2016, 9:45pm

Marky Dread wrote:
101Walterton wrote:I would go. Despite his (many) faults I am grateful for Bernie's contribution which has been downplayed and idiculed over time.
He was fortunate to work with some great bands. How much of their greatness is down to him is extremely debatable.
There's a good argument that he was skilled at developing and spurring a young band, but equally so that he didn't know, or lack the ego, to get the fuck out of the way once they built their own momentum. Which is to say that he merits respect for pushing the Clash in a productive direction, but also blame for heavily assisting in the group's collapse.
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Re: Bernard Rhodes at the British Library

Post by 101Walterton » 13 May 2016, 11:21pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
Marky Dread wrote:
101Walterton wrote:I would go. Despite his (many) faults I am grateful for Bernie's contribution which has been downplayed and idiculed over time.
He was fortunate to work with some great bands. How much of their greatness is down to him is extremely debatable.
There's a good argument that he was skilled at developing and spurring a young band, but equally so that he didn't know, or lack the ego, to get the fuck out of the way once they built their own momentum. Which is to say that he merits respect for pushing the Clash in a productive direction, but also blame for heavily assisting in the group's collapse.

Agreed. He also got them thinking differently and expanded their views. Mick and Joe were both writing pop love dongs before Bernie.

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Re: Bernard Rhodes at the British Library

Post by Marky Dread » 14 May 2016, 3:09am

101Walterton wrote:
Dr. Medulla wrote:
Marky Dread wrote:
101Walterton wrote:I would go. Despite his (many) faults I am grateful for Bernie's contribution which has been downplayed and idiculed over time.
He was fortunate to work with some great bands. How much of their greatness is down to him is extremely debatable.
There's a good argument that he was skilled at developing and spurring a young band, but equally so that he didn't know, or lack the ego, to get the fuck out of the way once they built their own momentum. Which is to say that he merits respect for pushing the Clash in a productive direction, but also blame for heavily assisting in the group's collapse.

Agreed. He also got them thinking differently and expanded their views. Mick and Joe were both writing pop love dongs before Bernie.
How Can I Understand the Flies?/ Protex Blue/ Deadly Serious are hardly what I would call poppy love songs. If Strummer found his calling watching the Sex Pistols at the Nashville then I doubt love songs were what he had in mind. Joe had already written Rabies (From the Dogs of Love) in the 101ers which is an anti love song. Maybe Bernie inspired them to write about what was happening around them but White Riot for example would not have been written if Joe and Paul hadn't attended the Carnival that year. I think Bernie's role is overplayed in much the same way as Malcolm's was with the Sex Pistols with claims of Malcolm and Jamie Reid writing the lyrics to Anarchy. Bernie and Malcolm were bluffers and were jealous of not being as young as the groups they managed. Malcolm ended up making his own music and Bernie tried the same with CtC. Bernie messed up The Clash and fucked up Subway Sect by not releasing their album he then pissed off The Special AKA. Kevin Rowland was also too wise to him with Dexy's and The JoBoxers realized he wasn't the right man. A pretty decent set of bands that have all fell foul of Bernie in one form or another.
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Re: Bernard Rhodes at the British Library

Post by Silent Majority » 14 May 2016, 3:47am

Marky Dread wrote:
101Walterton wrote:
Dr. Medulla wrote:
Marky Dread wrote:
101Walterton wrote:I would go. Despite his (many) faults I am grateful for Bernie's contribution which has been downplayed and idiculed over time.
He was fortunate to work with some great bands. How much of their greatness is down to him is extremely debatable.
There's a good argument that he was skilled at developing and spurring a young band, but equally so that he didn't know, or lack the ego, to get the fuck out of the way once they built their own momentum. Which is to say that he merits respect for pushing the Clash in a productive direction, but also blame for heavily assisting in the group's collapse.

Agreed. He also got them thinking differently and expanded their views. Mick and Joe were both writing pop love dongs before Bernie.
How Can I Understand the Flies?/ Protex Blue/ Deadly Serious are hardly what I would call poppy love songs.
They're all post-Bernie, aren't they? As for Strummer setting down that direction post-Pistols, Lydon credits Rhodes for getting him into the Pistols.
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Re: Bernard Rhodes at the British Library

Post by 101Walterton » 14 May 2016, 3:48am

Is your timeline right Marky?
Strummer also wrote Keys To Your Heart and Jones I'm So Bored Of You. When did Joe write DS and Flies?
I'm sure Joe would have started writing about their real lives and environment in time but Bernie pointed them in the right direction and didn't he suggest books to read etc..

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Re: Bernard Rhodes at the British Library

Post by 101Walterton » 14 May 2016, 3:52am

Silent Majority wrote:
Marky Dread wrote:
101Walterton wrote:
Dr. Medulla wrote:
Marky Dread wrote:
He was fortunate to work with some great bands. How much of their greatness is down to him is extremely debatable.
There's a good argument that he was skilled at developing and spurring a young band, but equally so that he didn't know, or lack the ego, to get the fuck out of the way once they built their own momentum. Which is to say that he merits respect for pushing the Clash in a productive direction, but also blame for heavily assisting in the group's collapse.

Agreed. He also got them thinking differently and expanded their views. Mick and Joe were both writing pop love dongs before Bernie.
How Can I Understand the Flies?/ Protex Blue/ Deadly Serious are hardly what I would call poppy love songs.
They're all post-Bernie, aren't they? As for Strummer setting down that direction post-Pistols, Lydon credits Rhodes for getting him into the Pistols.
I thought Protex Blue was an old song but not so sure about the others?

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Re: Bernard Rhodes at the British Library

Post by Low Down Low » 14 May 2016, 8:36am

Rowland credits Bernie with influencing him on how to change his singing style early on in Dexys, not much but it is something anyway.

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Re: Bernard Rhodes at the British Library

Post by Marky Dread » 14 May 2016, 1:17pm

101Walterton wrote:Is your timeline right Marky?
Strummer also wrote Keys To Your Heart and Jones I'm So Bored Of You. When did Joe write DS and Flies?
I'm sure Joe would have started writing about their real lives and environment in time but Bernie pointed them in the right direction and didn't he suggest books to read etc..
It's difficult to gauge a correct timeline but "Keys To Your Heart" isn't your standard moon in june lyrics with lines like "I used to be a teenage drug-taker
I used to hate the taste of cheese, I was gonna be an undertaker" and "I never used to look in the mirror, In case of what I might see, But now I think that I look like a killer" and "I'm So Bored with You" may be another relationship song but it's hardly "She Loves You". I think you could possibly credit Bernie with offering a political edge but he didn't write any of those songs.
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Re: Bernard Rhodes at the British Library

Post by Marky Dread » 14 May 2016, 1:18pm

Low Down Low wrote:Rowland credits Bernie with influencing him on how to change his singing style early on in Dexys, not much but it is something anyway.
Strummer credits Matt Monro with his singing style. Also Kevin sounded pretty good in the Killjoys. :lol:


I think Geno Washington had a much stronger effect on the young Kevin than Bernie.
Last edited by Marky Dread on 14 May 2016, 4:01pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bernard Rhodes at the British Library

Post by Marky Dread » 14 May 2016, 3:42pm

Silent Majority wrote:
Marky Dread wrote:
101Walterton wrote:
Dr. Medulla wrote:
Marky Dread wrote:
He was fortunate to work with some great bands. How much of their greatness is down to him is extremely debatable.
There's a good argument that he was skilled at developing and spurring a young band, but equally so that he didn't know, or lack the ego, to get the fuck out of the way once they built their own momentum. Which is to say that he merits respect for pushing the Clash in a productive direction, but also blame for heavily assisting in the group's collapse.

Agreed. He also got them thinking differently and expanded their views. Mick and Joe were both writing pop love dongs before Bernie.
How Can I Understand the Flies?/ Protex Blue/ Deadly Serious are hardly what I would call poppy love songs.
They're all post-Bernie, aren't they? As for Strummer setting down that direction post-Pistols, Lydon credits Rhodes for getting him into the Pistols.
I don't see how Lydon credits Rhodes for getting him in the Pistols other than Bernie spotting him on the Kings Road. It was Vivienne who suggested to Malcolm he should get this guy "John" and Malcolm asking Lydon in error to have an audition in the shop when all along Vivienne had been talking about the other John (Ritchie/Beverley) who later became Sid.
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Re: Bernard Rhodes at the British Library

Post by Marky Dread » 14 May 2016, 3:46pm

101Walterton wrote:
Silent Majority wrote:
Marky Dread wrote:
101Walterton wrote:
Dr. Medulla wrote:
There's a good argument that he was skilled at developing and spurring a young band, but equally so that he didn't know, or lack the ego, to get the fuck out of the way once they built their own momentum. Which is to say that he merits respect for pushing the Clash in a productive direction, but also blame for heavily assisting in the group's collapse.

Agreed. He also got them thinking differently and expanded their views. Mick and Joe were both writing pop love dongs before Bernie.
How Can I Understand the Flies?/ Protex Blue/ Deadly Serious are hardly what I would call poppy love songs.
They're all post-Bernie, aren't they? As for Strummer setting down that direction post-Pistols, Lydon credits Rhodes for getting him into the Pistols.
I thought Protex Blue was an old song but not so sure about the others?
Protex Blue was London SS days I think. "Flies" and "Deadly" are post-Bernie but how much influence he had on those early songs who knows. Well with "Flies" it's all down to the hot summer of 76 and squatting and nothing to do with Bernie.
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Re: Bernard Rhodes at the British Library

Post by 101Walterton » 14 May 2016, 4:36pm

Influences aside (and off track slightly) do you think the Pistols would have ever got their shit together to get anywhere without Malcom backing and pushing them? Jones and Cook were not the most reliable of characters. As Marky mentioned it was Vivienne and Malcol who incorrectly found John after an audition in Malcolm's shop.

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Re: Bernard Rhodes at the British Library

Post by Marky Dread » 14 May 2016, 5:25pm

101Walterton wrote:Influences aside (and off track slightly) do you think the Pistols would have ever got their shit together to get anywhere without Malcom backing and pushing them? Jones and Cook were not the most reliable of characters. As Marky mentioned it was Vivienne and Malcol who incorrectly found John after an audition in Malcolm's shop.
Diificult to say really. Prior to John joining Jones/Cook/Matlock were all big Small Faces/Faces fans. They were fast becoming a very competent rock 'n roll band. I think they would've found their way into recording on the tail end of pub rock the same way as say the likes of Eddie & the Hot Rods. I suppose you could point to The Professionals and the Rich Kids for sound. with John in the band it took them into another orbit and added that new (not punk) dimension. They needed Malcolm's mischievious management and his bullshit to secure themselves a solid base which they got in the way of Tin Pan Alley (Denmark St.) Malcolm gave the band some stabillty and limited funds.
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Re: Bernard Rhodes at the British Library

Post by Low Down Low » 15 May 2016, 6:59pm

Marky Dread wrote:
Low Down Low wrote:Rowland credits Bernie with influencing him on how to change his singing style early on in Dexys, not much but it is something anyway.
Strummer credits Matt Monro with his singing style. Also Kevin sounded pretty good in the Killjoys. :lol:


I think Geno Washington had a much stronger effect on the young Kevin than Bernie.
Its quite possible but I think Rowland knew Bernie from even his pre-Killjoys days so he was definitely a formative influence. In fact, I've always been struck by the similarities between DMR and the Clash with regard to Bernie, in that both KR and JS were, for complex and unfathomable reasons, drawn towards Bernie while pretty much the rest of their bandmates found him an odious creep. The major difference being, Rowland escaped from it fairly unscathed while it all but destroyed Joe.

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Re: Bernard Rhodes at the British Library

Post by Marky Dread » 15 May 2016, 7:49pm

Low Down Low wrote:
Marky Dread wrote:
Low Down Low wrote:Rowland credits Bernie with influencing him on how to change his singing style early on in Dexys, not much but it is something anyway.
Strummer credits Matt Monro with his singing style. Also Kevin sounded pretty good in the Killjoys. :lol:


I think Geno Washington had a much stronger effect on the young Kevin than Bernie.
Its quite possible but I think Rowland knew Bernie from even his pre-Killjoys days so he was definitely a formative influence. In fact, I've always been struck by the similarities between DMR and the Clash with regard to Bernie, in that both KR and JS were, for complex and unfathomable reasons, drawn towards Bernie while pretty much the rest of their bandmates found him an odious creep. The major difference being, Rowland escaped from it fairly unscathed while it all but destroyed Joe.
Point is/was that you said Kevin credited Bernie with changing his singing style but the truth is Kevin became disillusioned with punk and started to get heavily into soul and Geno in particular. Hell one listen to the lyrics of "Geno" says it all.
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