If Music Could Talk

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 11:54am

JennyB wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 10:40am

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

10 Nov 2018, 12:26pm

Next week, my class will be discussing Chairman Ralph's book.

I will be wearing The Shirt.

I have encouraged them to listen to CtC while reading.

I hope to recruit many wise men and street kids for Bernie.

And they say academia has gone down the tubes!

And most in my department would point to my course as proof of that. At the same time, I know I encourage more critical imagination, that it's about becoming a better thinker than the course content—in truth, I don't especially give a fuck about the material as somehow edifying in and of itself—so I'm not all that bugged by those views.

My comment was totally an indictment of CTC and not you - I hope you didn't read it otherwise!

JennyB wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 12:05pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 11:54am

JennyB wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 10:40am

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

10 Nov 2018, 12:26pm

Next week, my class will be discussing Chairman Ralph's book.

I will be wearing The Shirt.

I have encouraged them to listen to CtC while reading.

I hope to recruit many wise men and street kids for Bernie.

And they say academia has gone down the tubes!

And most in my department would point to my course as proof of that. At the same time, I know I encourage more critical imagination, that it's about becoming a better thinker than the course content—in truth, I don't especially give a fuck about the material as somehow edifying in and of itself—so I'm not all that bugged by those views.

My comment was totally an indictment of CTC and not you - I hope you didn't read it otherwise!

Ha! No, don't worry, I didn't take it that way. More about my awareness of how popular culture is regarded by academia.

I think we can all agree that the real enemy in education is the STEM people

Flex wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 12:13pm

I think we can all agree that the real enemy in education is the STEM people

After listening to the insufferable Neil DeGrasse Tyson being interviewed on Sirius Volume this morning, I think you are absolutely right.

Flex wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 12:13pm

I think we can all agree that the real enemy in education is the STEM people

I always tell students that the virtue of a BA is that it produces better citizens. Advanced skills training like STEM does not encourage development of a mind and a mindset particular to democratic values. When people shit on the humanities, they're shitting on civic-mindedness.

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 12:34pm

Flex wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 12:13pm

I think we can all agree that the real enemy in education is the STEM people

I always tell students that the virtue of a BA is that it produces better citizens. Advanced skills training like STEM does not encourage development of a mind and a mindset particular to democratic values. When people shit on the humanities, they're shitting on civic-mindedness.

As a STEM product I'm going to have to ask you for some data to back up your hypothesis.

revbob wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 7:03pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 12:34pm

Flex wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 12:13pm

I think we can all agree that the real enemy in education is the STEM people

I always tell students that the virtue of a BA is that it produces better citizens. Advanced skills training like STEM does not encourage development of a mind and a mindset particular to democratic values. When people shit on the humanities, they're shitting on civic-mindedness.

As a STEM product I'm going to have to ask you for some data to back up your hypothesis.

Because it's driven towards job skills. Nothing wrong with that—that shit is obviously important to our lives—but the nature of that education is particular job skills. They can serve a positive social purpose, but that's not the primary intent. Humanities, on the other hand, isn't guided by that kind of practicality. Which is why it gets shit on as "useless." But that only makes sense if higher education is supposed to serve professions.

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 8:01pm

revbob wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 7:03pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 12:34pm

Flex wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 12:13pm

I think we can all agree that the real enemy in education is the STEM people

I always tell students that the virtue of a BA is that it produces better citizens. Advanced skills training like STEM does not encourage development of a mind and a mindset particular to democratic values. When people shit on the humanities, they're shitting on civic-mindedness.

As a STEM product I'm going to have to ask you for some data to back up your hypothesis.

Because it's driven towards job skills. Nothing wrong with that—that shit is obviously important to our lives—but the nature of that education is particular job skills. They can serve a positive social purpose, but that's not the primary intent. Humanities, on the other hand, isn't guided by that kind of practicality. Which is why it gets shit on as "useless." But that only makes sense if higher education is supposed to serve professions.

I think your logical approach to your original statement is fine but at the same time I see no evidence to back it up.

Im not trying to be argumentative (no matter what people say about me ) I just don't really see what you're saying translating to my personal experiences.

revbob wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 9:03pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 8:01pm

revbob wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 7:03pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 12:34pm

Flex wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 12:13pm

I think we can all agree that the real enemy in education is the STEM people

I always tell students that the virtue of a BA is that it produces better citizens. Advanced skills training like STEM does not encourage development of a mind and a mindset particular to democratic values. When people shit on the humanities, they're shitting on civic-mindedness.

As a STEM product I'm going to have to ask you for some data to back up your hypothesis.

Because it's driven towards job skills. Nothing wrong with that—that shit is obviously important to our lives—but the nature of that education is particular job skills. They can serve a positive social purpose, but that's not the primary intent. Humanities, on the other hand, isn't guided by that kind of practicality. Which is why it gets shit on as "useless." But that only makes sense if higher education is supposed to serve professions.

I think your logical approach to your original statement is fine but at the same time I see no evidence to back it up.

Im not trying to be argumentative (no matter what people say about me ) I just don't really see what you're saying translating to my personal experiences.

No, you're right about my lack of evidence, but I'm not invested enough to dig into the specifics of curricula. Yet, I nevertheless feel confident in asserting that, say, math students are not trained to think about philosophy or issues related to race, class, and/or gender that underlie questions of community, justice, and power compared to humanities or social science students. They might have to take a course or two of special intro courses (the Boss, when we were still in Saskatchewan, occasionally had to teach the basic indigenous studies class for engineers, most of whom really resented having to take it) in a social science or humanities course, but that's about it. Ideally, students on both sides would receive a more diverse education, but the contemporary university doesn't swing that way, baby.

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 9:27pm

revbob wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 9:03pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 8:01pm

revbob wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 7:03pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 12:34pm

I always tell students that the virtue of a BA is that it produces better citizens. Advanced skills training like STEM does not encourage development of a mind and a mindset particular to democratic values. When people shit on the humanities, they're shitting on civic-mindedness.

As a STEM product I'm going to have to ask you for some data to back up your hypothesis.

Because it's driven towards job skills. Nothing wrong with that—that shit is obviously important to our lives—but the nature of that education is particular job skills. They can serve a positive social purpose, but that's not the primary intent. Humanities, on the other hand, isn't guided by that kind of practicality. Which is why it gets shit on as "useless." But that only makes sense if higher education is supposed to serve professions.

I think your logical approach to your original statement is fine but at the same time I see no evidence to back it up.

Im not trying to be argumentative (no matter what people say about me ) I just don't really see what you're saying translating to my personal experiences.

No, you're right about my lack of evidence, but I'm not invested enough to dig into the specifics of curricula. Yet, I nevertheless feel confident in asserting that, say, math students are not trained to think about philosophy or issues related to race, class, and/or gender that underlie questions of community, justice, and power compared to humanities or social science students. They might have to take a course or two of special intro courses (the Boss, when we were still in Saskatchewan, occasionally had to teach the basic indigenous studies class for engineers, most of whom really resented having to take it) in a social science or humanities course, but that's about it. Ideally, students on both sides would receive a more diverse education, but the contemporary university doesn't swing that way, baby.

It is possible to learn some of these things outside of the classroom environment and think it would be best to be teaching these things well before college. I also think that there is logic to be applied to these topics and real science to back it up. Its inaccurate information (bad data) that creates these flawed opinions, ideas and biases.

Was the class your wife taught specific for engineering students or a requirement for all students?

Im curious what the effect of taking this class had on her students? Was she able to reach any of them? I would have welcomed that type of class.

STEM advocates usually insist that should be the primary education focus throughout primary education, from kindergarten on. Not just college. I have a big problem with that, especially since it's usually paired with eliminating the arts from schools.

Addendum: that's in reference to the idea that some of the liberal arts stuff shold be taught prior to college. Which I agree with!

Flex wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 11:38pm

STEM advocates usually insist that should be the primary education focus throughout primary education, from kindergarten on. Not just college. I have a big problem with that, especially since it's usually paired with eliminating the arts from schools.

Addendum: that's in reference to the idea that some of the liberal arts stuff shold be taught prior to college. Which I agree with!

I too come from the WIMP school. Words, Intersexualism, Multiculturalism, and Political Correctness. Man did I screw me up.

revbob wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 10:13pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

13 Nov 2018, 9:27pm

No, you're right about my lack of evidence, but I'm not invested enough to dig into the specifics of curricula. Yet, I nevertheless feel confident in asserting that, say, math students are not trained to think about philosophy or issues related to race, class, and/or gender that underlie questions of community, justice, and power compared to humanities or social science students. They might have to take a course or two of special intro courses (the Boss, when we were still in Saskatchewan, occasionally had to teach the basic indigenous studies class for engineers, most of whom really resented having to take it) in a social science or humanities course, but that's about it. Ideally, students on both sides would receive a more diverse education, but the contemporary university doesn't swing that way, baby.

It is possible to learn some of these things outside of the classroom environment and think it would be best to be teaching these things well before college.

Right, of course. But I'm talking about the contours and aims of particular post-secondary education programs as they exist now. I'd love it if all this stuff—humanities and sciences—were more ardently taught at lower levels. But the degree of depth and complexity is always going to be greater at the post-secondary level than earlier, regardless of the subject matter.

I also think that there is logic to be applied to these topics and real science to back it up. Its inaccurate information (bad data) that creates these flawed opinions, ideas and biases.

Again, I don't entirely disagree. But science without a moral grounding can and has led to stuff like eugenics and nuclear weapons. So, science can easily serve horrific authoritarian impulses, which a proper humanities perspective can counter or mitigate. (Ideally, anyway.)

Was the class your wife taught specific for engineering students or a requirement for all students?

Im curious what the effect of taking this class had on her students? Was she able to reach any of them? I would have welcomed that type of class.

That particular class was for engineering students exclusively. It was part of the university's mandate to expose non-Arts students to the humanities and Canada's colonialist structures. There was a shit-ton of resistance from the Engineering College—as in, the dean and faculty—as irrelevant and impractical, and that went all the way down to the students. There were a few students, of course, who embraced the class, but most did the bare minimum and had a problem with the lack of right/wrong answers. It wasn't a class that instructors in her department wanted to teach either because of that basic resistance, which undoubtedly made the classroom experience worse yet for students. So it was fairly miserable for all involved.

The nadir of academia …

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

16 Nov 2018, 2:24pm

The nadir of academia …

Yes.