The Ramones song you're thinking about right now

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Dr. Medulla
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Re: The Ramones song you're thinking about right now

Post by Dr. Medulla » 27 May 2016, 6:39am

Marky Dread wrote:The big punk bands all had some chart success and saw it as an evil necessity to get the message across to a wider audience.
Should punk have as wide an audience as possible (mass, democratic) or by its nature is it required to have narrow appeal (exclusive, elitist)? The usual conception is the latter, hence the angry accusations of selling out when a band has a hit. But for a genre that is at the same time anti-hierarchy—DIY, anybody can do this—it's a weird stance to take, that apparently there is a hierarchy when it comes to audiences. Maybe that is the weird inversion of punk—a minimization of hierarchies when it comes to who can perform, but heightened hierarchies in terms of who is allowed to be the audience.
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Re: The Ramones song you're thinking about right now

Post by Flex » 27 May 2016, 9:33am

I think the objection is to capitalist appropriation of cultural expression, no?

I mean, I'm on board with interrogating the contradictions of punk and whatnot, but I don't think it's actually that contradictory or hierarchical or what have you for an impulse to exist where there's pushback to the music of resistance and anger against authority and the status quo being used to line the pockets of CEOs and sell lexuses. And the suspicion that the people making that music are complicit.

I'm not saying it's a defensible position, or there isn't a lot of nuance in how the world actually works and what other benefits exist for embracing appropriation, but I don't necessarily see it as inherently contradictory.

EDIT: Sentence got weird there. I meant to say there's something to the idea of punk in mass media as detournement.

(I do think there's an impulse among some to decry something simply because it's popular which IS more contradictory and is a slightly different species of pushback than what I'm talking about. I think that's something that exists in punk but is hardly exclusive of punk, so I dunno if I can get too worked up about it being an embedded contradiction of the scene.)
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Re: The Ramones song you're thinking about right now

Post by JennyB » 27 May 2016, 9:41am

BostonBeaneater wrote:
What I am about to say attests to the fact that while I'm not particularly intelligent, I have more random crap stuck in my head than most:

This is the song that Tep and Mrs. Tep danced to at their wedding.

Also, it's pretty creepy that I know this, right? :shifty:
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Re: The Ramones song you're thinking about right now

Post by drowninghere » 27 May 2016, 9:43am

My own two cents is that the Ramones' punk of I Wanna Be Sedated, Blitzkrieg Bop, Sheena, etc. is simply more pop, commercial and frankly catchy than anything from the Clash's punk period (first two albums and the singles in between). Another way of putting it is that the Clash's punk period songs have a harder edge in terms of both sound and production and are less commercially accessible (which is sort of ironic if we accept that the Ramones have more 'punk cred' than the Clash). As a result, I just don't think that the Clash have a punk equivalent to those Ramones' songs that can compete in terms of popularity.

Combine that with the fact that I think the Clash have been relatively judicious with what songs they are willing to licence out for commercials, movies, etc., and relatively poor in defining for the public a small selection of songs that make them truly great (London Calling and perhaps Train in Vain aside), and we have the present situation where you are absolutely more likely to hear I Wanna Be Sedated or Blitzkrieg Bop on the radio or in a bar than any particular Clash song (from my experience).

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Re: The Ramones song you're thinking about right now

Post by Marky Dread » 27 May 2016, 9:58am

Dr. Medulla wrote:
Marky Dread wrote:The big punk bands all had some chart success and saw it as an evil necessity to get the message across to a wider audience.
Should punk have as wide an audience as possible (mass, democratic) or by its nature is it required to have narrow appeal (exclusive, elitist)? The usual conception is the latter, hence the angry accusations of selling out when a band has a hit. But for a genre that is at the same time anti-hierarchy—DIY, anybody can do this—it's a weird stance to take, that apparently there is a hierarchy when it comes to audiences. Maybe that is the weird inversion of punk—a minimization of hierarchies when it comes to who can perform, but heightened hierarchies in terms of who is allowed to be the audience.
Starting out with a D.I.Y. approach is all well and good but what's the point of having something to say if only a few are going to hear it. Once you've done it like that first Buzzcocks EP then it's all over in terms of doing it a second time. Punk wasn't anti success it was more to with an attempt to do things musically on it's own terms and it succeeded in breaking down the idea that you didn't need to be a great musician in order to make great music. The idea that punk can be and can do anything is very appealing.

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Re: The Ramones song you're thinking about right now

Post by Dr. Medulla » 27 May 2016, 12:34pm

Part of the "problem" (in the intellectual sense) with punk is that it it's fundamentally a form of folk music: an emphasis on the authentic, a high priority on intent, a suspicion if not hostility with commerciality, championing of the underclass, and minimizing of the distance (physical and ideological) between performer and audience. But it runs into the problem as any other form of recorded music: it's commodified. It's all for sale and there's no censoring of who gets to buy or listen to it. The vast majority of performers understand the latter and have no real problem because they're in it to be heard. The issue is with the fans—i.e., the stereotypical "real fans"—who tend to take things so much more seriously, to seek greater ideological purity. Think Dylan's "Judas!" moment. It seems a better approach for fans is to realize that there is no purity and to treat the music as a virus. Who knows what happens when it gets out there. In all likelihood nothing, certainly nothing directly observable, but it's better to "go thru" capitalism in a clever way than to futilely resist.
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Re: The Ramones song you're thinking about right now

Post by Silent Majority » 27 May 2016, 1:21pm

I don't believe you.
'But also: hey dude, you can just go looking for more glasses. They're all free now. '

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Re: The Ramones song you're thinking about right now

Post by Dr. Medulla » 27 May 2016, 1:27pm

I, uh, got nothing. I yield the floor. :disshame:
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Re: The Ramones song you're thinking about right now

Post by Marky Dread » 27 May 2016, 1:37pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:Part of the "problem" (in the intellectual sense) with punk is that it it's fundamentally a form of folk music: an emphasis on the authentic, a high priority on intent, a suspicion if not hostility with commerciality, championing of the underclass, and minimizing of the distance (physical and ideological) between performer and audience. But it runs into the problem as any other form of recorded music: it's commodified. It's all for sale and there's no censoring of who gets to buy or listen to it. The vast majority of performers understand the latter and have no real problem because they're in it to be heard. The issue is with the fans—i.e., the stereotypical "real fans"—who tend to take things so much more seriously, to seek greater ideological purity. Think Dylan's "Judas!" moment. It seems a better approach for fans is to realize that there is no purity and to treat the music as a virus. Who knows what happens when it gets out there. In all likelihood nothing, certainly nothing directly observable, but it's better to "go thru" capitalism in a clever way than to futilely resist.
Fucking hell does it really need all that analysis? Music is fun it's there to be enjoyed if it inspires then all well and good if it just makes you feel better then great. It can be thought provoking or it can be just music for elevators either way it's just entertainment.

The name of the thread is "The Ramones song you're thinking about right now" one of the most basic forms of music there is and also one of the most fun ever to listen to.
Last edited by Marky Dread on 27 May 2016, 1:41pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Ramones song you're thinking about right now

Post by Silent Majority » 27 May 2016, 1:39pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:I, uh, got nothing. I yield the floor. :disshame:
I love that as Dylan's frustrated response to the Limey yelling "Judas!" at him. Then; "Play it fucking loud." to Robbie Robertson.
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Re: The Ramones song you're thinking about right now

Post by Flex » 27 May 2016, 1:40pm

Silent Majority wrote:I love that as Dylan's frustrated response to the Limey yelling "Judas!" at him. Then; "Play it fucking loud." to Robbie Robertson.
A good rock and roll response. :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:
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Re: The Ramones song you're thinking about right now

Post by Silent Majority » 27 May 2016, 1:43pm

Flex wrote:
Silent Majority wrote:I love that as Dylan's frustrated response to the Limey yelling "Judas!" at him. Then; "Play it fucking loud." to Robbie Robertson.
A good rock and roll response. :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:
I think a lot of Dylan detractors are annoyed at his reputation and fans, and not the actual mercurial man who likes to write music and play about.
'But also: hey dude, you can just go looking for more glasses. They're all free now. '

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Re: The Ramones song you're thinking about right now

Post by Marky Dread » 27 May 2016, 1:44pm

Silent Majority wrote:
Flex wrote:
Silent Majority wrote:I love that as Dylan's frustrated response to the Limey yelling "Judas!" at him. Then; "Play it fucking loud." to Robbie Robertson.
A good rock and roll response. :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:
I think a lot of Dylan detractors are annoyed at his reputation and fans, and not the actual mercurial man who likes to write music and play about.
I though most Dylan detractors just couldn't get on with his voice.
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Re: The Ramones song you're thinking about right now

Post by Dr. Medulla » 27 May 2016, 1:45pm

Flex wrote:
Silent Majority wrote:I love that as Dylan's frustrated response to the Limey yelling "Judas!" at him. Then; "Play it fucking loud." to Robbie Robertson.
A good rock and roll response. :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:
Confirming the Judas line to the holier-than-thou folkies.
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Re: The Ramones song you're thinking about right now

Post by Silent Majority » 27 May 2016, 1:46pm

Marky Dread wrote:
Dr. Medulla wrote:Part of the "problem" (in the intellectual sense) with punk is that it it's fundamentally a form of folk music: an emphasis on the authentic, a high priority on intent, a suspicion if not hostility with commerciality, championing of the underclass, and minimizing of the distance (physical and ideological) between performer and audience. But it runs into the problem as any other form of recorded music: it's commodified. It's all for sale and there's no censoring of who gets to buy or listen to it. The vast majority of performers understand the latter and have no real problem because they're in it to be heard. The issue is with the fans—i.e., the stereotypical "real fans"—who tend to take things so much more seriously, to seek greater ideological purity. Think Dylan's "Judas!" moment. It seems a better approach for fans is to realize that there is no purity and to treat the music as a virus. Who knows what happens when it gets out there. In all likelihood nothing, certainly nothing directly observable, but it's better to "go thru" capitalism in a clever way than to futilely resist.
Fucking hell does it really need all that analysis? Music is fun it's there to be enjoyed if it inspires then all well and good if it just makes you feel better then great. It can be thought provoking or it can be just music for elevators either way it's just entertainment.

The name of the thread is "The Ramones song you're thinking about right now" one of the most basic forms of music there is and also one of the most fun ever to listen to.
I think those are some complicated pressures on creative types that are worth talking and thinking about.
'But also: hey dude, you can just go looking for more glasses. They're all free now. '

www.pexlives.libsyn.com/

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