Best band before The Clash?

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101Walterton
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Re: Best band before The Clash?

Post by 101Walterton »

You only need to look at the very early days of the UK punk scene to see its failings. The underground movement was all about being creative, expressing yourself, being who you wanted to be, being an individual not being who you were told you had to be. As soon as the Pistols made front page of the Mirror it was over. From then you had to dress in a punk uniform, you had to behave a certain way that was expected of punks. I was ridiculed once by some punks for wearing home made bondage trousers when they were all wearing 'designer' tartan ones from a certain retail outlet !!
So who exactly are these punks that live the punk ideal ??

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Re: Best band before The Clash?

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Marky Dread wrote:I hear you Dr. M I really do but I think bands like Fugazi who stick to an ideal or ideals are not playing the same game as the so called Punks I have more respect for Fugazi than say Green Day, but one exists as an ideal the other is just idealistic.
The semantic game playing in this is dizzying. So, because Fugazi (to just use that example) are sticking to ideals commonly associated with punk, they aren't punk, whereas all those regarded as sell-outs and what have you get to keep the label? Honestly, I have no idea where you're going with any of this.
101Walterton wrote:You only need to look at the very early days of the UK punk scene to see its failings. The underground movement was all about being creative, expressing yourself, being who you wanted to be, being an individual not being who you were told you had to be. As soon as the Pistols made front page of the Mirror it was over.
I agree—to a degree. After Grundy, it went from a small cult scene into something that was treated as spectacle and turned into a commodity. That original London scene was fucked in so many ways despite still producing some great music. But as something that could have grown, yeah, you're right, it was over.
From then you had to dress in a punk uniform, you had to behave a certain way that was expected of punks. I was ridiculed once by some punks for wearing home made bondage trousers when they were all wearing 'designer' tartan ones from a certain retail outlet !!
So who exactly are these punks that live the punk ideal ??
My objection to this is that it creates a false monolith. Not all punks adopt a uniform of fashion, conduct, or thought. I certainly didn't dress in a punk uniform in high school and I was especially withdrawn and non-violent, so I didn't fit that aggressive stereotype. Look at photos of Dead Kennedys, for example. None of them looked like stereotypical punks. As a mindset, it manifests itself in diverse ways, and zeroing in on the prepackaged look just validates those who sought to commodify and confine it in the first place.
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Re: Best band before The Clash?

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101Walterton wrote:You only need to look at the very early days of the UK punk scene to see its failings. The underground movement was all about being creative, expressing yourself, being who you wanted to be, being an individual not being who you were told you had to be. As soon as the Pistols made front page of the Mirror it was over. From then you had to dress in a punk uniform, you had to behave a certain way that was expected of punks. I was ridiculed once by some punks for wearing home made bondage trousers when they were all wearing 'designer' tartan ones from a certain retail outlet !!
So who exactly are these punks that live the punk ideal ??
It's the Punk tag I have a problem with none of the original Punks really gave a fuck about ideals it was about self expression and freedom from everyday mundane life that counted. Certain bands had things to say of course but the inevitable let down followed. What is considered Punk today is different and some bands have strong ideals like Fugazi but they all require the media or new media to survive.
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Re: Best band before The Clash?

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Marky Dread wrote:
I hear you Dr. M I really do but I think bands like Fugazi who stick to an ideal or ideals are not playing the same game as the so called Punks I have more respect for Fugazi than say Green Day, but one exists as an ideal the other is just idealistic. How about this line Plato the Greek or Rin Tin Tin who's more famous to the billion millions?
Per an Ian MacKaye interview I have on CD somewhere, each Fugazi album (after '93 or so) sold about 200,000 albums relatively quickly upon release. Not Green Day numbers, but given Dischord's business model, that's flat-out business success (not Hippie or Punk idealism) and 100% in line with what anyone would call the Punk ethos, assuming the Punk ethos means DIY and not drug abuse and random destruction ala Sid. In 1992 (when Dischord's public exposure was probably largest, due to Nirvana, et al) they released upwards of twenty bands, when the audience just wasn't there in the early 2000s, they had three bands actively recording for them. They weren't idealists going for infinite growth and putting out CDs of a hundred bands they couldn't afford to finance in an unfriendly climate. Ian and Joe still tour and everyone else in the band seems to do OK for themselves and can afford equipment and keep their business running.

If you're arguing that the Fugazi model hasn't been successfully replicated by any band of significance since then, I'd agree. I don't think it could be replicated again in a million years just based on all the changes since the 80s where DIschord got their foothold.
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Re: Best band before The Clash?

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But surely non Punk uniform is just another uniform.
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Re: Best band before The Clash?

Post by 101Walterton »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
Marky Dread wrote:
From then you had to dress in a punk uniform, you had to behave a certain way that was expected of punks. I was ridiculed once by some punks for wearing home made bondage trousers when they were all wearing 'designer' tartan ones from a certain retail outlet !!
So who exactly are these punks that live the punk ideal ??
My objection to this is that it creates a false monolith. Not all punks adopt a uniform of fashion, conduct, or thought. I certainly didn't dress in a punk uniform in high school and I was especially withdrawn and non-violent, so I didn't fit that aggressive stereotype. Look at photos of Dead Kennedys, for example. None of them looked like stereotypical punks. As a mindset, it manifests itself in diverse ways, and zeroing in on the prepackaged look just validates those who sought to commodify and confine it in the first place.
My point was that whatever was the original mandate quickly got dissolved by the masses who on the whole were not aware or did not understand it therefore the movement evolved to become something else entirely.

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Re: Best band before The Clash?

Post by IkarisOne »

Still216 wrote:
Marky Dread wrote:
I hear you Dr. M I really do but I think bands like Fugazi who stick to an ideal or ideals are not playing the same game as the so called Punks I have more respect for Fugazi than say Green Day, but one exists as an ideal the other is just idealistic. How about this line Plato the Greek or Rin Tin Tin who's more famous to the billion millions?
Per an Ian MacKaye interview I have on CD somewhere, each Fugazi album (after '93 or so) sold about 200,000 albums relatively quickly upon release. Not Green Day numbers, but given Dischord's business model, that's flat-out business success (not Hippie or Punk idealism) and 100% in line with what anyone would call the Punk ethos, assuming the Punk ethos means DIY and not drug abuse and random destruction ala Sid. In 1992 (when Dischord's public exposure was probably largest, due to Nirvana, et al) they released upwards of twenty bands, when the audience just wasn't there in the early 2000s, they had three bands actively recording for them. They weren't idealists going for infinite growth and putting out CDs of a hundred bands they couldn't afford to finance in an unfriendly climate. Ian and Joe still tour and everyone else in the band seems to do OK for themselves and can afford equipment and keep their business running.

If you're arguing that the Fugazi model hasn't been successfully replicated by any band of significance since then, I'd agree. I don't think it could be replicated again in a million years just based on all the changes since the 80s where DIschord got their foothold.
Well, I applaud Fugazi's business practices and their refusal to pimp themselves out. Pearl Jam and the aforementioned Nine Inch Nails are two other bands that stepped off of the major label roller coaster and continue to thrive. The problem when you over-license or over-expose your brand is that people tend to get burned out on it. By the same token, I didn't begrudge Buzzcocks or Wire for selling their songs for commercials because they are both very, very hard-working (and genuinely talented) bands who've never been duly rewarded for their contributions to the medium. Hundreds of bands have stolen their ideas and gotten rich off of them.

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Re: Best band before The Clash?

Post by Marky Dread »

So is Punk an ideal or a label or both?
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Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


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No fuchsias for you.

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101Walterton
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Re: Best band before The Clash?

Post by 101Walterton »

IkarisOne wrote:
Still216 wrote:
Marky Dread wrote:
I hear you Dr. M I really do but I think bands like Fugazi who stick to an ideal or ideals are not playing the same game as the so called Punks I have more respect for Fugazi than say Green Day, but one exists as an ideal the other is just idealistic. How about this line Plato the Greek or Rin Tin Tin who's more famous to the billion millions?
Per an Ian MacKaye interview I have on CD somewhere, each Fugazi album (after '93 or so) sold about 200,000 albums relatively quickly upon release. Not Green Day numbers, but given Dischord's business model, that's flat-out business success (not Hippie or Punk idealism) and 100% in line with what anyone would call the Punk ethos, assuming the Punk ethos means DIY and not drug abuse and random destruction ala Sid. In 1992 (when Dischord's public exposure was probably largest, due to Nirvana, et al) they released upwards of twenty bands, when the audience just wasn't there in the early 2000s, they had three bands actively recording for them. They weren't idealists going for infinite growth and putting out CDs of a hundred bands they couldn't afford to finance in an unfriendly climate. Ian and Joe still tour and everyone else in the band seems to do OK for themselves and can afford equipment and keep their business running.

If you're arguing that the Fugazi model hasn't been successfully replicated by any band of significance since then, I'd agree. I don't think it could be replicated again in a million years just based on all the changes since the 80s where DIschord got their foothold.
Well, I applaud Fugazi's business practices and their refusal to pimp themselves out. Pearl Jam and the aforementioned Nine Inch Nails are two other bands that stepped off of the major label roller coaster and continue to thrive. The problem when you over-license or over-expose your brand is that people tend to get burned out on it. By the same token, I didn't begrudge Buzzcocks or Wire for selling their songs for commercials because they are both very, very hard-working (and genuinely talented) bands who've never been duly rewarded for their contributions to the medium. Hundreds of bands have stolen their ideas and gotten rich off of them.
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Re: Best band before The Clash?

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Image
What I gather from the limeys is that George W Bush is punk as fuck. I mean, he didn't give a damn and invaded a country just for the hell of it and he's beholden to corporate interests (thusly sellout = punk) and is also successful (=punk).
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101Walterton
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Re: Best band before The Clash?

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eumaas wrote:Image
What I gather from the limeys is that George W Bush is punk as fuck. I mean, he didn't give a damn and invaded a country just for the hell of it and he's beholden to corporate interests (thusly sellout = punk) and is also successful (=punk).
Stop being a fanny !!

101Walterton
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Re: Best band before The Clash?

Post by 101Walterton »

I have never said 'what is punk' I have merely pointed out its contradictions.

eumaas
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Re: Best band before The Clash?

Post by eumaas »

Uh huh.
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman

I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
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101Walterton
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Re: Best band before The Clash?

Post by 101Walterton »

But then again how mixed up am I as a school kid in a 1970's satelite town reading the gospel of Johnny and Joe with 'no hope' and 'no future' running through my head only to step into the middle of a Thatcherite London where everything I thought I knew was turned on its head !!

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Re: Best band before The Clash?

Post by Marky Dread »

eumaas wrote:Image
What I gather from the limeys is that George W Bush is punk as fuck. I mean, he didn't give a damn and invaded a country just for the hell of it and he's beholden to corporate interests (thusly sellout = punk) and is also successful (=punk).
Yep lots of similarities here Punk is bullshit and so is your president. By the way UK Punk and US Punk have nothing in common except a hairstyle.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

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