Bosstones break up

[gkbill]

Would anyone be even slightly surprise if Tim Armstrong and the Interrupters are anti-vax too?

I don't think I'm capable of being shocked anymore if someone associated with a punk scene (broadly speaking) and over 40 is anti-vax/mask. Way too much kneejerk contrarian rather than thoughtfulness at work.

Hello,

As with a lot of things, the Ramones have it summed up:

[Dr. Medulla]

Would anyone be even slightly surprise if Tim Armstrong and the Interrupters are anti-vax too?

I don't think I'm capable of being shocked anymore if someone associated with a punk scene (broadly speaking) and over 40 is anti-vax/mask. Way too much kneejerk contrarian rather than thoughtfulness at work.

Hello,

As with a lot of things, the Ramones have it summed up:

Which, ick, does capture a lot of the neanderthal position these days.

[Wolter]

To be fair, the Ramones were never hardcore leftists on anything and Johnny was a straight up Reaganite.

[Flex]

This surfaced a few days ago, Dicky doing an interview with the shithead anti-vax guy who got some attention for wearing a star of david to protests: https://thehighwire.com/videos/episode- ... rave-ones/

I watched it, dicky basically confirms everything about his anti-vax stance. A few interesting things:

1. He's too much of a coward to actually articulate what his anti-vax position is. Some fans had tried to hope he was "just" anti-mandate but he makes some undefined mentions of how vaccines themselves are bad and pinpoints his generally being anti-vax to when his kids were born circa 2015 and he and his wife "did the research" and thought vaccines were harmful. But at no point in the interview was he willing to really say what he imagined the problem with vaccines are or was he willing to articulate support for, say, his host or rfk jr's comparisons of anti-vax activists to jews during the holocaust or any of the other nonsense he's gotten himself associated with now. just incredibly cowardly.

2. He does allude to coming to anti-vax stuff via being anti-gmo/monsanto and "fake food"/"real food" dichotomy. Which would very VERY in keeping with 90s lib/left activism. I mean, shit, Jello Biafra use to rail against "frankenfood" on the reg. Very easy to go from that kind of green party-libertarian alliance stuff to anti-vaccine. it's the pipeline I suspected for dicky given his background and I was right. He also mentioned how he was influenced by rfk jr from his enviro work and then thought it was weird to not listen to him on vaccines too. Just a sadly predictable pipeline.

3. He did some revisionist history on the bosstones, claiming they were never anti-anyone regardless of background or ideology, conveniently neglecting to mention their years supporting the ARA, the militant anti-racist org that was a precursor to antifa organizing would physically attack neo-nazis and their organizations. so i call bullshit on dicky's convenient "i was always just about getting along with anyone, why did everyone else change" shtick.

It's sad. At no point does he recognize he has agency in all the things that have happened to him. I wouldn't recommend watching the show and giving it the traffic, but I had to hear it myself. I was glad he more or less confirmed all the rest of the band told him to fuck off.

[Dr. Medulla]

2. He does allude to coming to anti-vax stuff via being anti-gmo/monsanto and "fake food"/"real food" dichotomy. Which would very VERY in keeping with 90s lib/left activism. I mean, shit, Jello Biafra use to rail against "frankenfood" on the reg. Very easy to go from that kind of green party-libertarian alliance stuff to anti-vaccine. it's the pipeline I suspected for dicky given his background and I was right. He also mentioned how he was influenced by rfk jr from his enviro work and then thought it was weird to not listen to him on vaccines too. Just a sadly predictable pipeline.

I've often tried challenging to students to consider punk as not necessarily some kind of critical oppositional positional versus dumb kneejerk opposition against the mainstream. How many leftish punks are working the same territory as Deep State numbnuts? Far more than I wish were the case.

[BostonBeaneater]

This surfaced a few days ago, Dicky doing an interview with the shithead anti-vax guy who got some attention for wearing a star of david to protests: https://thehighwire.com/videos/episode- ... rave-ones/

I watched it, dicky basically confirms everything about his anti-vax stance. A few interesting things:

1. He's too much of a coward to actually articulate what his anti-vax position is. Some fans had tried to hope he was "just" anti-mandate but he makes some undefined mentions of how vaccines themselves are bad and pinpoints his generally being anti-vax to when his kids were born circa 2015 and he and his wife "did the research" and thought vaccines were harmful. But at no point in the interview was he willing to really say what he imagined the problem with vaccines are or was he willing to articulate support for, say, his host or rfk jr's comparisons of anti-vax activists to jews during the holocaust or any of the other nonsense he's gotten himself associated with now. just incredibly cowardly.

2. He does allude to coming to anti-vax stuff via being anti-gmo/monsanto and "fake food"/"real food" dichotomy. Which would very VERY in keeping with 90s lib/left activism. I mean, shit, Jello Biafra use to rail against "frankenfood" on the reg. Very easy to go from that kind of green party-libertarian alliance stuff to anti-vaccine. it's the pipeline I suspected for dicky given his background and I was right. He also mentioned how he was influenced by rfk jr from his enviro work and then thought it was weird to not listen to him on vaccines too. Just a sadly predictable pipeline.

3. He did some revisionist history on the bosstones, claiming they were never anti-anyone regardless of background or ideology, conveniently neglecting to mention their years supporting the ARA, the militant anti-racist org that was a precursor to antifa organizing would physically attack neo-nazis and their organizations. so i call bullshit on dicky's convenient "i was always just about getting along with anyone, why did everyone else change" shtick.

It's sad. At no point does he recognize he has agency in all the things that have happened to him. I wouldn't recommend watching the show and giving it the traffic, but I had to hear it myself. I was glad he more or less confirmed all the rest of the band told him to fuck off.

Thanks for listening so I didn't have to. Sadly, no surprises.

[Flex]

A twitter account claiming to be dicky barrett did a little trolling of me and Wolter last night for expressing our distaste with Barrett rallying with anti-blm trumpers in his new anti-vaccination activism. Anyways, a few interesting things:

1. I posted the account on a Bosstones facebook fan group and got confirmation it IS dicky;

2. if you look through the account it's just dicky name-searching himself and harassing people that say him being ani-vax is fucked up, although he focuses mostly on attacking Jer, who's an up and coming queer, black ska artist. So that's extremely, extremely fucked up;

3. My post on the facebook group was removed and apparently the post-breakup policy is to delete all evidence of Dicky's online behavior attacking people, particularly queer POCs, who disagree with him. So THATS insanely fucked up.

Super insane. I can't even describe how weird it is that Dicky, and the fanbase whose cultural backbone used to be the militant ant-racism/anti-fascism of the ARA, are now suppressing any dissent against a principle member's attacks on queer people and minorities. Insane, weird and quite sad.

Being trolled and attacked by one of your former musical and cultural heroes is quite something, though.

[revbob]

A twitter account claiming to be dicky barrett did a little trolling of me and Wolter last night for expressing our distaste with Barrett rallying with anti-blm trumpers in his new anti-vaccination activism. Anyways, a few interesting things:

1. I posted the account on a Bosstones facebook fan group and got confirmation it IS dicky;

2. if you look through the account it's just dicky name-searching himself and harassing people that say him being ani-vax is fucked up, although he focuses mostly on attacking Jer, who's an up and coming queer, black ska artist. So that's extremely, extremely fucked up;

3. My post on the facebook group was removed and apparently the post-breakup policy is to delete all evidence of Dicky's online behavior attacking people, particularly queer POCs, who disagree with him. So THATS insanely fucked up.

Super insane. I can't even describe how weird it is that Dicky, and the fanbase whose cultural backbone used to be the militant ant-racism/anti-fascism of the ARA, are now suppressing any dissent against a principle member's attacks on queer people and minorities. Insane, weird and quite sad.

Being trolled and attacked by one of your former musical and cultural heroes is quite something, though.

Wow this is all sorts of fucked up.

[Dr. Medulla]

I can't even describe how weird it is that Dicky, and the fanbase whose cultural backbone used to be the militant ant-racism/anti-fascism of the ARA, are now suppressing any dissent against a principle member's attacks on queer people and minorities. Insane, weird and quite sad.

Like with Morrissey and Lydon, it encourages re-examining the person to assess whether they've changed, or were you reading what you wanted to see in them previously.

Being trolled and attacked by one of your former musical and cultural heroes is quite something, though.

Eventually you learn to love Clash II again.

[Flex]

Like with Morrissey and Lydon, it encourages re-examining the person to assess whether they've changed, or were you reading what you wanted to see in them previously.

Probably both. I mean, they used to bring the ARA on tour with them to recruit people, so at some point he had very different views about making common cause with racists and fascists (and being a racist and fascist). I'm sure his support was always more skin deep than I'd have liked to believe at the time (borne out by his current actions, obviously).

As you say, he's not the first alt guy to take the wrong path, especially later in life as wealth and fame accumulate. I'm probably more disgusted with the fanbase that views protecting him as more important than protecting the political ideals of the band in their prime. I mean, notably, the rest of the band preferred cutting bait than standing with him. Seems like the fanbase should consider following suit.

[revbob]

Like with Morrissey and Lydon, it encourages re-examining the person to assess whether they've changed, or were you reading what you wanted to see in them previously.

Probably both. I mean, they used to bring the ARA on tour with them to recruit people, so at some point he had very different views about making common cause with racists and fascists (and being a racist and fascist). I'm sure his support was always more skin deep than I'd have liked to believe at the time (borne out by his current actions, obviously).

As you say, he's not the first alt guy to take the wrong path, especially later in life as wealth and fame accumulate. I'm probably more disgusted with the fanbase that views protecting him as more important than protecting the political ideals of the band in their prime. I mean, notably, the rest of the band preferred cutting bait than standing with him. Seems like the fanbase should consider following suit.

I'll never feel the same joy (yes Im capable) I used to when playing/hearing TMMB.

[Dr. Medulla]

Like with Morrissey and Lydon, it encourages re-examining the person to assess whether they've changed, or were you reading what you wanted to see in them previously.

Probably both. I mean, they used to bring the ARA on tour with them to recruit people, so at some point he had very different views about making common cause with racists and fascists (and being a racist and fascist). I'm sure his support was always more skin deep than I'd have liked to believe at the time (borne out by his current actions, obviously).

As you say, he's not the first alt guy to take the wrong path, especially later in life as wealth and fame accumulate. I'm probably more disgusted with the fanbase that views protecting him as more important than protecting the political ideals of the band in their prime. I mean, notably, the rest of the band preferred cutting bait than standing with him. Seems like the fanbase should consider following suit.

Fandom is in no small part emotional and being in love, and plenty of relationships are preserved by making excuses for each other. Fandom is a crucial part of modern entertainment, but it’s also mostly distasteful. The proprietary inclination of fans ruin so damned much, from encouraging artistic growth to hindering a mature critical position toward art.

[Flex]

Thinking on it, and I don't even know if Lydon and Morrissey are quite the right analogies for the depth of betrayal Barrett is doing here. He wasn't just some rock star who flirted with different imagery, he was actively, straightforwardly involved in leftist -not just liberal - organizing and activism with his band and spoke plainly in support of these causes.

The closest analogy I can think of would be if Joe Strummer were alive and participating in brexit rallies with the BNP and National Front and then going around attacking black and gay people who say that's fucked up.

Addendum: and then if this board banned anyone who talked about that.

[Flex]

Fandom is in no small part emotional and being in love, and plenty of relationships are preserved by making excuses for each other. Fandom is a crucial part of modern entertainment, but it’s also mostly distasteful. The proprietary inclination of fans ruin so damned much, from encouraging artistic growth to hindering a mature critical position toward art.

Yeah, and I think there's a stark divide between people who see "fandom" as a relationship between themselves and the art and ideas that constitute a thing and the people who see fandom as a relationship between them and the creator. And it's a burry line of course - it's hard to disentangle my love of the clash with my affection for the band members, to pick one obvious example - but anyone who thinks their fandom is a relationship between them and an artist is obviously kidding themselves. And possibly letting themselves be open to getting used for bad ends.

[Dr. Medulla]

Thinking on it, and I don't even know if Lydon and Morrissey are quite the right analogies for the depth of betrayal Barrett is doing here. He wasn't just some rock star who flirted with different imagery, he was actively, straightforwardly involved in leftist -not just liberal - organizing and activism with his band and spoke plainly in support of these causes.

The closest analogy I can think of would be if Joe Strummer were alive and participating in brexit rallies with the BNP and National Front and then going around attacking black and gay people who say that's fucked up.

Addendum: and then if this board banned anyone who talked about that.

That's a fair distinction. Neither Lydon nor Morrissey were ever overtly political or cause-oriented (animal rights excepted in the latter), so the betrayal is more impressionistic than clear-cut.

Yeah, and I think there's a stark divide between people who see "fandom" as a relationship between themselves and the art and ideas that constitute a thing and the people who see fandom as a relationship between them and the creator. And it's a burry line of course - it's hard to disentangle my love of the clash with my affection for the band members, to pick one obvious example - but anyone who thinks their fandom is a relationship between them and an artist is obviously kidding themselves. And possibly letting themselves be open to getting used for bad ends.

Perhaps I'm being snobbish, but it's a maturity thing for me. Adolescents and early youth, it's easy to fall in and out of love. But as you get older, relationships become more nuanced. Our relationship with artists should similarly grow, from that first rush of enthusiasm to something sensibly critical. We can still appreciate and take inspiration, but we're doing it as more independent-minded figures. If you're incapable of being critical, you're slavishly in love and vulnerable to abuse.