What's so post about post-punk?

General music discussion.
Dr. Medulla
User avatar
Atheistic Epileptic
Posts: 115994
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
Location: Straight Banana, Idaho

Re: What's so post about post-punk?

Post by Dr. Medulla »

gkbill wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 9:04pm
Hello,

I'm of the opinion punk doesn't exist anymore - it did exist but it was a product of the times. Looking back, I 'm very thankful I was lucky enough to be young at that time. I feel badly for kids today who don't get to experience that kind of movement. Their lives are so empty of true excitement and energy. Your proposed seminar may be punk as a social experience/movement. I'd be interested as to how someone would define the end (death) of punk - MTV?

Using the imagination requires too much effort for many students as discussed previously.
When do you think punk ended and what ended it? I think punk scenes come and go, but if it's more of an ideology or ethos, it never fully goes away.

And, yeah, part of my idea about a punk seminar is to possibly develop a way of a punk education space. But what that would mean, I don't know. I'm pretty old fashioned in thinking we should read lots, use our imagination, and talk a lot in class. But I'd like to think offering a course with punk as the them would attract some adventurous minds. Or maybe it'll be a bunch of knobs who listen to Blink 182.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Wolter
User avatar
Half Foghorn Leghorn, Half Albert Brooks
Posts: 55432
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 7:59pm
Location: ¡HOLIDAY RO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-OAD!

Re: What's so post about post-punk?

Post by Wolter »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 10:16pm
gkbill wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 9:04pm
Hello,

I'm of the opinion punk doesn't exist anymore - it did exist but it was a product of the times. Looking back, I 'm very thankful I was lucky enough to be young at that time. I feel badly for kids today who don't get to experience that kind of movement. Their lives are so empty of true excitement and energy. Your proposed seminar may be punk as a social experience/movement. I'd be interested as to how someone would define the end (death) of punk - MTV?

Using the imagination requires too much effort for many students as discussed previously.
When do you think punk ended and what ended it? I think punk scenes come and go, but if it's more of an ideology or ethos, it never fully goes away.

And, yeah, part of my idea about a punk seminar is to possibly develop a way of a punk education space. But what that would mean, I don't know. I'm pretty old fashioned in thinking we should read lots, use our imagination, and talk a lot in class. But I'd like to think offering a course with punk as the them would attract some adventurous minds. Or maybe it'll be a bunch of knobs who listen to Blink 182.
An entire class of Flexes?!? *shudder*
”INDER LOCK THE THE KISS THREAD IVE REALISED IM A PRZE IDOOT” - Thomas Jefferson

"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"

Flex
User avatar
Mechano-Man of the Future
Posts: 35803
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:50pm
Location: The Information Superhighway!

Re: What's so post about post-punk?

Post by Flex »

Wolter wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 11:02pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 10:16pm
gkbill wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 9:04pm
Hello,

I'm of the opinion punk doesn't exist anymore - it did exist but it was a product of the times. Looking back, I 'm very thankful I was lucky enough to be young at that time. I feel badly for kids today who don't get to experience that kind of movement. Their lives are so empty of true excitement and energy. Your proposed seminar may be punk as a social experience/movement. I'd be interested as to how someone would define the end (death) of punk - MTV?

Using the imagination requires too much effort for many students as discussed previously.
When do you think punk ended and what ended it? I think punk scenes come and go, but if it's more of an ideology or ethos, it never fully goes away.

And, yeah, part of my idea about a punk seminar is to possibly develop a way of a punk education space. But what that would mean, I don't know. I'm pretty old fashioned in thinking we should read lots, use our imagination, and talk a lot in class. But I'd like to think offering a course with punk as the them would attract some adventurous minds. Or maybe it'll be a bunch of knobs who listen to Blink 182.
An entire class of Flexes?!? *shudder*
Hey now! I barely listen to anything they released after Dude Ranch.
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead

Pex Lives!

Wolter
User avatar
Half Foghorn Leghorn, Half Albert Brooks
Posts: 55432
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 7:59pm
Location: ¡HOLIDAY RO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-OAD!

Re: What's so post about post-punk?

Post by Wolter »

Flex wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 11:25pm
Wolter wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 11:02pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 10:16pm
gkbill wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 9:04pm
Hello,

I'm of the opinion punk doesn't exist anymore - it did exist but it was a product of the times. Looking back, I 'm very thankful I was lucky enough to be young at that time. I feel badly for kids today who don't get to experience that kind of movement. Their lives are so empty of true excitement and energy. Your proposed seminar may be punk as a social experience/movement. I'd be interested as to how someone would define the end (death) of punk - MTV?

Using the imagination requires too much effort for many students as discussed previously.
When do you think punk ended and what ended it? I think punk scenes come and go, but if it's more of an ideology or ethos, it never fully goes away.

And, yeah, part of my idea about a punk seminar is to possibly develop a way of a punk education space. But what that would mean, I don't know. I'm pretty old fashioned in thinking we should read lots, use our imagination, and talk a lot in class. But I'd like to think offering a course with punk as the them would attract some adventurous minds. Or maybe it'll be a bunch of knobs who listen to Blink 182.
An entire class of Flexes?!? *shudder*
Hey now! I barely listen to anything they released after Dude Ranch.
Of all the Flexersons, you are the Flexiest.
”INDER LOCK THE THE KISS THREAD IVE REALISED IM A PRZE IDOOT” - Thomas Jefferson

"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"

gkbill
Unknown Immortal
Posts: 4729
Joined: 23 Jun 2008, 9:21pm

Re: What's so post about post-punk?

Post by gkbill »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 10:16pm
gkbill wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 9:04pm
Hello,

I'm of the opinion punk doesn't exist anymore - it did exist but it was a product of the times. Looking back, I 'm very thankful I was lucky enough to be young at that time. I feel badly for kids today who don't get to experience that kind of movement. Their lives are so empty of true excitement and energy. Your proposed seminar may be punk as a social experience/movement. I'd be interested as to how someone would define the end (death) of punk - MTV?

Using the imagination requires too much effort for many students as discussed previously.
When do you think punk ended and what ended it? I think punk scenes come and go, but if it's more of an ideology or ethos, it never fully goes away.

And, yeah, part of my idea about a punk seminar is to possibly develop a way of a punk education space. But what that would mean, I don't know. I'm pretty old fashioned in thinking we should read lots, use our imagination, and talk a lot in class. But I'd like to think offering a course with punk as the them would attract some adventurous minds. Or maybe it'll be a bunch of knobs who listen to Blink 182.
Hello,

The easy answer is Winterland. It's less specific but I'd say once punk was accepted (good luck picking that date). I recall being in clubs that used to be all punk-type people (meaning people who thought very independently; dress was non-conformist - no black leather jackets, no mohawks - just unlike any other club or anything on TV) and then seeing normal people (meaning people who towed the status quo, were kind of curious, and wanted to perceived as hip) show up to look at the punks. The scales had tipped.

The seminar idea still has merit. Given the small potential cohort, online may work best but you would need to coordinate zoom lectures/discussions.

Dr. Medulla
User avatar
Atheistic Epileptic
Posts: 115994
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
Location: Straight Banana, Idaho

Re: What's so post about post-punk?

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Flex wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 11:25pm
Wolter wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 11:02pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 10:16pm
gkbill wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 9:04pm
Hello,

I'm of the opinion punk doesn't exist anymore - it did exist but it was a product of the times. Looking back, I 'm very thankful I was lucky enough to be young at that time. I feel badly for kids today who don't get to experience that kind of movement. Their lives are so empty of true excitement and energy. Your proposed seminar may be punk as a social experience/movement. I'd be interested as to how someone would define the end (death) of punk - MTV?

Using the imagination requires too much effort for many students as discussed previously.
When do you think punk ended and what ended it? I think punk scenes come and go, but if it's more of an ideology or ethos, it never fully goes away.

And, yeah, part of my idea about a punk seminar is to possibly develop a way of a punk education space. But what that would mean, I don't know. I'm pretty old fashioned in thinking we should read lots, use our imagination, and talk a lot in class. But I'd like to think offering a course with punk as the them would attract some adventurous minds. Or maybe it'll be a bunch of knobs who listen to Blink 182.
An entire class of Flexes?!? *shudder*
Hey now! I barely listen to anything they released after Dude Ranch.
Can't spell Flex without "F and I'll be talking to your department chair about you."
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Dr. Medulla
User avatar
Atheistic Epileptic
Posts: 115994
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
Location: Straight Banana, Idaho

Re: What's so post about post-punk?

Post by Dr. Medulla »

gkbill wrote:
17 Dec 2019, 1:31am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 10:16pm
gkbill wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 9:04pm
Hello,

I'm of the opinion punk doesn't exist anymore - it did exist but it was a product of the times. Looking back, I 'm very thankful I was lucky enough to be young at that time. I feel badly for kids today who don't get to experience that kind of movement. Their lives are so empty of true excitement and energy. Your proposed seminar may be punk as a social experience/movement. I'd be interested as to how someone would define the end (death) of punk - MTV?

Using the imagination requires too much effort for many students as discussed previously.
When do you think punk ended and what ended it? I think punk scenes come and go, but if it's more of an ideology or ethos, it never fully goes away.

And, yeah, part of my idea about a punk seminar is to possibly develop a way of a punk education space. But what that would mean, I don't know. I'm pretty old fashioned in thinking we should read lots, use our imagination, and talk a lot in class. But I'd like to think offering a course with punk as the them would attract some adventurous minds. Or maybe it'll be a bunch of knobs who listen to Blink 182.
Hello,

The easy answer is Winterland. It's less specific but I'd say once punk was accepted (good luck picking that date). I recall being in clubs that used to be all punk-type people (meaning people who thought very independently; dress was non-conformist - no black leather jackets, no mohawks - just unlike any other club or anything on TV) and then seeing normal people (meaning people who towed the status quo, were kind of curious, and wanted to perceived as hip) show up to look at the punks. The scales had tipped.
That definition necessarily excludes so many bands and scenes that happened after the Pistols went splat, unless you treat, say, hardcore or riot grrrl as something distinct from punk. But it does speak to one of the curious paradoxes of punk—that it's democratic and individualist/independent-minded, yet it must also be elitist because when too many of the "wrong" people participate it gets ruined. Open minded yet somehow not open membership. It's a premise built on failure and bitterness.
The seminar idea still has merit. Given the small potential cohort, online may work best but you would need to coordinate zoom lectures/discussions.
I've never done an online course and would be really resistant to the idea. I'm not an especially social person in my normal life, but education has gotta be real human interaction for me. There's something magical for me about getting people in a room sitting in square and talking. Lectures are remote and mostly one-way, but seminar discussion without physical proximity is just wrong.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

gkbill
Unknown Immortal
Posts: 4729
Joined: 23 Jun 2008, 9:21pm

Re: What's so post about post-punk?

Post by gkbill »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
17 Dec 2019, 7:41am
gkbill wrote:
17 Dec 2019, 1:31am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 10:16pm
gkbill wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 9:04pm
Hello,

I'm of the opinion punk doesn't exist anymore - it did exist but it was a product of the times. Looking back, I 'm very thankful I was lucky enough to be young at that time. I feel badly for kids today who don't get to experience that kind of movement. Their lives are so empty of true excitement and energy. Your proposed seminar may be punk as a social experience/movement. I'd be interested as to how someone would define the end (death) of punk - MTV?

Using the imagination requires too much effort for many students as discussed previously.
When do you think punk ended and what ended it? I think punk scenes come and go, but if it's more of an ideology or ethos, it never fully goes away.

And, yeah, part of my idea about a punk seminar is to possibly develop a way of a punk education space. But what that would mean, I don't know. I'm pretty old fashioned in thinking we should read lots, use our imagination, and talk a lot in class. But I'd like to think offering a course with punk as the them would attract some adventurous minds. Or maybe it'll be a bunch of knobs who listen to Blink 182.
Hello,

The easy answer is Winterland. It's less specific but I'd say once punk was accepted (good luck picking that date). I recall being in clubs that used to be all punk-type people (meaning people who thought very independently; dress was non-conformist - no black leather jackets, no mohawks - just unlike any other club or anything on TV) and then seeing normal people (meaning people who towed the status quo, were kind of curious, and wanted to perceived as hip) show up to look at the punks. The scales had tipped.
That definition necessarily excludes so many bands and scenes that happened after the Pistols went splat, unless you treat, say, hardcore or riot grrrl as something distinct from punk. But it does speak to one of the curious paradoxes of punk—that it's democratic and individualist/independent-minded, yet it must also be elitist because when too many of the "wrong" people participate it gets ruined. Open minded yet somehow not open membership. It's a premise built on failure and bitterness.
The seminar idea still has merit. Given the small potential cohort, online may work best but you would need to coordinate zoom lectures/discussions.
I've never done an online course and would be really resistant to the idea. I'm not an especially social person in my normal life, but education has gotta be real human interaction for me. There's something magical for me about getting people in a room sitting in square and talking. Lectures are remote and mostly one-way, but seminar discussion without physical proximity is just wrong.
Hello,

I do consider hardcore a different genre than punk. I also think it lacks some ingredients punk had (owing to punk's timeframe among others). There was a certain mentality among my friends/associates/acquaintances - but I wouldn't call it elitist - more like liberated. People who didn't fit in or were somewhat outcast had a place to go - the kind of thing talked about here and elsewhere previously.

I've done a lot with online education. I'd agree an in-person experience is preferable but if the option is no education, you can make online work. The latest trend in online education is in-person - using zoom or something similar to get people together virtually and converse/exchange thoughts, ideas, etc. You can make it work. Again, not as good as a traditional setting in a classroom but better than not getting together. I've had some really good results especially with younger students used to online exchanges.

Dr. Medulla
User avatar
Atheistic Epileptic
Posts: 115994
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
Location: Straight Banana, Idaho

Re: What's so post about post-punk?

Post by Dr. Medulla »

gkbill wrote:
17 Dec 2019, 12:31pm
I do consider hardcore a different genre than punk. I also think it lacks some ingredients punk had (owing to punk's timeframe among others).
It's one of those points where a person is either a lumper or a splitter—i.e., what's more important, those elements that are shared or are distinct? I hem and haw on the issue and work around with descriptives relating to aesthetics or geographies, but ultimately come down on the side of self-identification. If post-Pistols musicians and audiences consider themselves punk, good enough.
There was a certain mentality among my friends/associates/acquaintances - but I wouldn't call it elitist - more like liberated. People who didn't fit in or were somewhat outcast had a place to go - the kind of thing talked about here and elsewhere previously.
Right, that community of the excluded. Which seems pretty democratic and open and all that, but in practice, like all scenes, the doors do close and it becomes segregationist, elitist.
I've done a lot with online education. I'd agree an in-person experience is preferable but if the option is no education, you can make online work. The latest trend in online education is in-person - using zoom or something similar to get people together virtually and converse/exchange thoughts, ideas, etc. You can make it work. Again, not as good as a traditional setting in a classroom but better than not getting together. I've had some really good results especially with younger students used to online exchanges.
I have no idea the degree to which my school does these things. If my dean wanted me to try something like that, where I could have students from a wide geography, yeah, I'd give it a shot because, as you said, if the alternative is no education, it'd be silly not to try.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Kory
User avatar
Unknown Immortal
Posts: 17319
Joined: 17 Jun 2008, 1:42pm
Location: In the Discosphere

Re: What's so post about post-punk?

Post by Kory »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
17 Dec 2019, 1:16pm
There was a certain mentality among my friends/associates/acquaintances - but I wouldn't call it elitist - more like liberated. People who didn't fit in or were somewhat outcast had a place to go - the kind of thing talked about here and elsewhere previously.
Right, that community of the excluded. Which seems pretty democratic and open and all that, but in practice, like all scenes, the doors do close and it becomes segregationist, elitist.
Ostensibly, the exclusion would be based on poseurism, but what wringer would somebody have to go through to be considered punk and accepted into the community? Time spent immersed in the music, the right clothes, the right class, the right attitude, the right knowledge? The list could go on forever, I suppose.
"Suck our Earth dick, Martians!" —Doc

Dr. Medulla
User avatar
Atheistic Epileptic
Posts: 115994
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
Location: Straight Banana, Idaho

Re: What's so post about post-punk?

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Kory wrote:
17 Dec 2019, 1:56pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
17 Dec 2019, 1:16pm
There was a certain mentality among my friends/associates/acquaintances - but I wouldn't call it elitist - more like liberated. People who didn't fit in or were somewhat outcast had a place to go - the kind of thing talked about here and elsewhere previously.
Right, that community of the excluded. Which seems pretty democratic and open and all that, but in practice, like all scenes, the doors do close and it becomes segregationist, elitist.
Ostensibly, the exclusion would be based on poseurism, but what wringer would somebody have to go through to be considered punk and accepted into the community? Time spent immersed in the music, the right clothes, the right class, the right attitude, the right knowledge? The list could go on forever, I suppose.
Based on how various scenes are born, live, and die, it's a bit of a pyramid scheme. When there are very few, the entry cost and criteria is pretty low. Intense love and support for the bands and the people in the scene and you're in. As time passes and the scene grows and the music becomes more popular, additional waves of people join, those who weren't there at the start. The larger the fan base becomes, the more demanding those closer to the top of pyramid tend to be towards the newcomers. Prove your worth, noob. You weren't there when it mattered, you wouldn't get it. Etc etc. Until a sense that the old spirit that shaped the scene has been too watered down by the wrong fans and/or the bands have "changed" in some way.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Heston
User avatar
God of Thunder...and Rock 'n Roll
Posts: 38356
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 4:07pm
Location: North of Watford Junction

Re: What's so post about post-punk?

Post by Heston »

When was the term "post-punk" first coined? I really can't recall hearing it til the 90s.
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

Dr. Medulla
User avatar
Atheistic Epileptic
Posts: 115994
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
Location: Straight Banana, Idaho

Re: What's so post about post-punk?

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Heston wrote:
17 Dec 2019, 8:19pm
When was the term "post-punk" first coined? I really can't recall hearing it til the 90s.
That's a really good question. I'm pretty sure it was around when I discovered punk in the mid-80s, and assumed it was created by UK music journalists as shorthand for post-Pistols, punk-inspired music.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Heston
User avatar
God of Thunder...and Rock 'n Roll
Posts: 38356
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 4:07pm
Location: North of Watford Junction

Re: What's so post about post-punk?

Post by Heston »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
17 Dec 2019, 8:32pm
Heston wrote:
17 Dec 2019, 8:19pm
When was the term "post-punk" first coined? I really can't recall hearing it til the 90s.
That's a really good question. I'm pretty sure it was around when I discovered punk in the mid-80s, and assumed it was created by UK music journalists as shorthand for post-Pistols, punk-inspired music.
I always get the feeling it was a "way after the fact" handle.
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

Dr. Medulla
User avatar
Atheistic Epileptic
Posts: 115994
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
Location: Straight Banana, Idaho

Re: What's so post about post-punk?

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Heston wrote:
17 Dec 2019, 8:50pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
17 Dec 2019, 8:32pm
Heston wrote:
17 Dec 2019, 8:19pm
When was the term "post-punk" first coined? I really can't recall hearing it til the 90s.
That's a really good question. I'm pretty sure it was around when I discovered punk in the mid-80s, and assumed it was created by UK music journalists as shorthand for post-Pistols, punk-inspired music.
I always get the feeling it was a "way after the fact" handle.
By the mid-80s, tho (at least in Gerussiland), the term "alternative" was being used, and I gather that was the successor of post-punk.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Post Reply