The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

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Kory
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by Kory » 28 Nov 2017, 5:07pm

Why isn't anything that Johnny has done post-Smiths very interesting? I find it hard to believe that Morrissey was his muse.
Inder:
Absolutely. Here's another collection of words:

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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by Dr. Medulla » 28 Nov 2017, 5:34pm

Kory wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 5:07pm
Why isn't anything that Johnny has done post-Smiths very interesting? I find it hard to believe that Morrissey was his muse.
Until his recent (and pretty dang good) solo albums, he's just been content to be part of someone else's game. It might make him uninteresting, but I kinda dig him for that "it's just about the music" attitude. I zipped thru his memoir several months. Not especially interesting, but it does suggest that he's a pretty level-headed guy who recognizes the bullshit of celebrity.
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by Marky Dread » 28 Nov 2017, 5:40pm

Kory wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 5:07pm
Why isn't anything that Johnny has done post-Smiths very interesting? I find it hard to believe that Morrissey was his muse.
Simple Johnny isn't any good on his own. He is a great guitar player who Can write great melodies and come up with fantastic riffs but he can not write songs of any great shakes. His solo records are average at best. His album he did with The Healers sounded like a poor version of Oasis. It's no surprise he played with The The and The Pretenders two well known established bands. People can hate away on Morrissey (rightly so) but all of Johnny's best work is as a member of The Smiths.
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by Inder » 28 Nov 2017, 5:45pm

Marr joined The Cribs for a bit — I seem to recall the albums being pretty well received.

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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by Marky Dread » 28 Nov 2017, 5:52pm

Inder wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 5:45pm
Marr joined The Cribs for a bit — I seem to recall the albums being pretty well received.
When he is playing on others material it frees him up. He is not a very good singer and should stick to the guitar. The same applies to John Squire.
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by Kory » 28 Nov 2017, 6:23pm

Marky Dread wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 5:40pm
Kory wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 5:07pm
Why isn't anything that Johnny has done post-Smiths very interesting? I find it hard to believe that Morrissey was his muse.
Simple Johnny isn't any good on his own. He is a great guitar player who Can write great melodies and come up with fantastic riffs but he can not write songs of any great shakes. His solo records are average at best. His album he did with The Healers sounded like a poor version of Oasis. It's no surprise he played with The The and The Pretenders two well known established bands. People can hate away on Morrissey (rightly so) but all of Johnny's best work is as a member of The Smiths.
But the writing style of the Smiths was usually that Johnny would write the whole song using Andy and Mike as a canvas, and then Morrissey would add his vocals afterward. Taking Morrissey out of that equation should theoretically leave some awesome instrumentals at least.
Inder:
Absolutely. Here's another collection of words:

Table salt (spoon hinge)
Octopus (Ukraine)
St. Petersburg (arms)
Ginger beer (cauliflower)
Pat Sajak (PSak)
Lamp post (self evident)
Florida Timeshare (ditto)
Heraclitus (EMI)
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by Kory » 28 Nov 2017, 6:26pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 5:34pm
Kory wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 5:07pm
Why isn't anything that Johnny has done post-Smiths very interesting? I find it hard to believe that Morrissey was his muse.
Until his recent (and pretty dang good) solo albums, he's just been content to be part of someone else's game. It might make him uninteresting, but I kinda dig him for that "it's just about the music" attitude. I zipped thru his memoir several months. Not especially interesting, but it does suggest that he's a pretty level-headed guy who recognizes the bullshit of celebrity.
I'm going to listen to the solos again. I do appreciate his valuing of music above all else, but it seems that whoever he worked with would want him to be at his best—that would be the point of asking Marr to collaborate. If he turns in lackluster work, I imagine it being as disappointing for his collaborators as much for the audience.
Inder:
Absolutely. Here's another collection of words:

Table salt (spoon hinge)
Octopus (Ukraine)
St. Petersburg (arms)
Ginger beer (cauliflower)
Pat Sajak (PSak)
Lamp post (self evident)
Florida Timeshare (ditto)
Heraclitus (EMI)
Developers (Developers Developers)
Boogie With Your Children

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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by Dr. Medulla » 28 Nov 2017, 6:34pm

Kory wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 6:26pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 5:34pm
Kory wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 5:07pm
Why isn't anything that Johnny has done post-Smiths very interesting? I find it hard to believe that Morrissey was his muse.
Until his recent (and pretty dang good) solo albums, he's just been content to be part of someone else's game. It might make him uninteresting, but I kinda dig him for that "it's just about the music" attitude. I zipped thru his memoir several months. Not especially interesting, but it does suggest that he's a pretty level-headed guy who recognizes the bullshit of celebrity.
I'm going to listen to the solos again. I do appreciate his valuing of music above all else, but it seems that whoever he worked with would want him to be at his best—that would be the point of asking Marr to collaborate. If he turns in lackluster work, I imagine it being as disappointing for his collaborators as much for the audience.
I'm not a fan of Electronic—somehow less than the sum of its parts—but his two albums with The The are outstanding. I don't think i ever heard anything by The Cribs, tho.
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by Marky Dread » 28 Nov 2017, 6:56pm

Kory wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 6:23pm
Marky Dread wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 5:40pm
Kory wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 5:07pm
Why isn't anything that Johnny has done post-Smiths very interesting? I find it hard to believe that Morrissey was his muse.
Simple Johnny isn't any good on his own. He is a great guitar player who Can write great melodies and come up with fantastic riffs but he can not write songs of any great shakes. His solo records are average at best. His album he did with The Healers sounded like a poor version of Oasis. It's no surprise he played with The The and The Pretenders two well known established bands. People can hate away on Morrissey (rightly so) but all of Johnny's best work is as a member of The Smiths.
But the writing style of the Smiths was usually that Johnny would write the whole song using Andy and Mike as a canvas, and then Morrissey would add his vocals afterward. Taking Morrissey out of that equation should theoretically leave some awesome instrumentals at least.
No this is wrong mate it does not take Morrissey out of the equation. Sure he would add the vocal take after the music but Marr would've had to have seen the lyric first and this is what inspires that music. Listen to how Mick talks about Joe "who couldn't write such a great tune when presented with such great lyrics".

Imagine John Rotten writing a song about teenage love instead of the lyric to Anarchy in the U.K. there's no way Jones would've come up with that guitar sound without that lyric.

The lyric is what inspires the feel of the song and Morrissey was such a strong writer with a very distinctive style.
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by oliver » 28 Nov 2017, 7:10pm

Marky Dread wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 6:56pm
No this is wrong mate it does not take Morrissey out of the equation. Sure he would add the vocal take after the music but Marr would've had to have seen the lyric first and this is what inspires that music. Listen to how Mick talks about Joe "who couldn't write such a great tune when presented with such great lyrics".
I'm sure Johnny said that he would often have no idea what Morrissey was going to sing over the top. I took that to mean he hadn't seen the words not that he didn't know the melody.
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by Kory » 28 Nov 2017, 7:25pm

oliver wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 7:10pm
Marky Dread wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 6:56pm
No this is wrong mate it does not take Morrissey out of the equation. Sure he would add the vocal take after the music but Marr would've had to have seen the lyric first and this is what inspires that music. Listen to how Mick talks about Joe "who couldn't write such a great tune when presented with such great lyrics".
I'm sure Johnny said that he would often have no idea what Morrissey was going to sing over the top. I took that to mean he hadn't seen the words not that he didn't know the melody.
This corroborates other evidence, like some demos of songs that were cannibalized to add parts to other songs later. If Johnny had been writing for pre-written lyrics, how would he be able to trash those songs? Plus, we know that Oscillate Wildly, Money Changes Everything, and The Draize Train were all written and presented to Morrissey without lyrical guidance, but with the intention of having Moz write lyrics for them.
Inder:
Absolutely. Here's another collection of words:

Table salt (spoon hinge)
Octopus (Ukraine)
St. Petersburg (arms)
Ginger beer (cauliflower)
Pat Sajak (PSak)
Lamp post (self evident)
Florida Timeshare (ditto)
Heraclitus (EMI)
Developers (Developers Developers)
Boogie With Your Children

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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by Marky Dread » 28 Nov 2017, 7:53pm

Kory wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 7:25pm
oliver wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 7:10pm
Marky Dread wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 6:56pm
No this is wrong mate it does not take Morrissey out of the equation. Sure he would add the vocal take after the music but Marr would've had to have seen the lyric first and this is what inspires that music. Listen to how Mick talks about Joe "who couldn't write such a great tune when presented with such great lyrics".
I'm sure Johnny said that he would often have no idea what Morrissey was going to sing over the top. I took that to mean he hadn't seen the words not that he didn't know the melody.
This corroborates other evidence, like some demos of songs that were cannibalized to add parts to other songs later. If Johnny had been writing for pre-written lyrics, how would he be able to trash those songs? Plus, we know that Oscillate Wildly, Money Changes Everything, and The Draize Train were all written and presented to Morrissey without lyrical guidance, but with the intention of having Moz write lyrics for them.
I'm well aware that Johnny had already stockpiled a number of tunes in his bedroom. But come on guys are you suggesting he hadn't seen any of the lyrics Morrissey was puting to his tunes. There may well be times when the music came first but I will defy anyone to suggest he was not inspired by some of those lyrics and Morrissey's very distinct vocal style. A vocal style they even today splits it's audience with stuff like "Yeah The Smiths are great but I don't like Morrissey's voice" and people saying their best Smiths song is an instrumental and for no good reason other tham those vocals.

Oh and one other thing have you heard Johnny singing Smiths songs live, urgh!. Morrissey love him or loathe was one of the best lyricists of his generation. There would've been plenty of times when Marr saw the lyric before writing the tune/melody especially for a band who were so prolific at releasing 7'' single hits.
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by Kory » 28 Nov 2017, 8:02pm

Marky Dread wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 7:53pm
Kory wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 7:25pm
oliver wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 7:10pm
Marky Dread wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 6:56pm
No this is wrong mate it does not take Morrissey out of the equation. Sure he would add the vocal take after the music but Marr would've had to have seen the lyric first and this is what inspires that music. Listen to how Mick talks about Joe "who couldn't write such a great tune when presented with such great lyrics".
I'm sure Johnny said that he would often have no idea what Morrissey was going to sing over the top. I took that to mean he hadn't seen the words not that he didn't know the melody.
This corroborates other evidence, like some demos of songs that were cannibalized to add parts to other songs later. If Johnny had been writing for pre-written lyrics, how would he be able to trash those songs? Plus, we know that Oscillate Wildly, Money Changes Everything, and The Draize Train were all written and presented to Morrissey without lyrical guidance, but with the intention of having Moz write lyrics for them.
I'm well aware that Johnny had already stockpiled a number of tunes in his bedroom. But come on guys are you suggesting he hadn't seen any of the lyrics Morrissey was puting to his tunes. There may well be times when the music came first but I will defy anyone to suggest he was not inspired by some of those lyrics and Morrissey's very distinct vocal style. A vocal style they even today splits it's audience with stuff like "Yeah The Smiths are great but I don't like Morrissey's voice" and people saying their best Smiths song is an instrumental and for no good reason other tham those vocals.

Oh and one other thing have you heard Johnny singing Smiths songs live, urgh!. Morrissey love him or loathe was one of the best lyricists of his generation. There would've been plenty of times when Marr saw the lyric before writing the tune/melody especially for a band who were so prolific at releasing 7'' single hits.
I haven't read anything that suggests that Marr had read lyrics beforehand, except for early songs like Suffer Little Children or The Hand That Rocks the Cradle. But I have read a ton of anecdotes and interviews that suggest that nobody knew what Morrissey's lyrics or melody would be until they were in the studio, which is slightly bolstered by many demos having titles like "heavy track" or "fast one." Obviously we'll never know, but I think there's more evidence for the latter.
Inder:
Absolutely. Here's another collection of words:

Table salt (spoon hinge)
Octopus (Ukraine)
St. Petersburg (arms)
Ginger beer (cauliflower)
Pat Sajak (PSak)
Lamp post (self evident)
Florida Timeshare (ditto)
Heraclitus (EMI)
Developers (Developers Developers)
Boogie With Your Children

Marky Dread
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by Marky Dread » 28 Nov 2017, 8:34pm

Kory wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 8:02pm
Marky Dread wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 7:53pm
Kory wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 7:25pm
oliver wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 7:10pm
Marky Dread wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 6:56pm
No this is wrong mate it does not take Morrissey out of the equation. Sure he would add the vocal take after the music but Marr would've had to have seen the lyric first and this is what inspires that music. Listen to how Mick talks about Joe "who couldn't write such a great tune when presented with such great lyrics".
I'm sure Johnny said that he would often have no idea what Morrissey was going to sing over the top. I took that to mean he hadn't seen the words not that he didn't know the melody.
This corroborates other evidence, like some demos of songs that were cannibalized to add parts to other songs later. If Johnny had been writing for pre-written lyrics, how would he be able to trash those songs? Plus, we know that Oscillate Wildly, Money Changes Everything, and The Draize Train were all written and presented to Morrissey without lyrical guidance, but with the intention of having Moz write lyrics for them.
I'm well aware that Johnny had already stockpiled a number of tunes in his bedroom. But come on guys are you suggesting he hadn't seen any of the lyrics Morrissey was puting to his tunes. There may well be times when the music came first but I will defy anyone to suggest he was not inspired by some of those lyrics and Morrissey's very distinct vocal style. A vocal style they even today splits it's audience with stuff like "Yeah The Smiths are great but I don't like Morrissey's voice" and people saying their best Smiths song is an instrumental and for no good reason other tham those vocals.

Oh and one other thing have you heard Johnny singing Smiths songs live, urgh!. Morrissey love him or loathe was one of the best lyricists of his generation. There would've been plenty of times when Marr saw the lyric before writing the tune/melody especially for a band who were so prolific at releasing 7'' single hits.
I haven't read anything that suggests that Marr had read lyrics beforehand, except for early songs like Suffer Little Children or The Hand That Rocks the Cradle. But I have read a ton of anecdotes and interviews that suggest that nobody knew what Morrissey's lyrics or melody would be until they were in the studio, which is slightly bolstered by many demos having titles like "heavy track" or "fast one." Obviously we'll never know, but I think there's more evidence for the latter.
Well I'm pobably as well read as the next Smiths fan. It's fine to totally believe whatever you like I have no problem with that. Here's what I do know "Half A Person" was allegedly written on the studio's fire escape. Morrissey would also often right down the title of the song and Marr would try to write music he thought suited the title. Occassionaly they wrote face to face and would suss out the song structure to that but it's true he rarely knew the finished lyric. Now after you have made your first couple of songs and had a single released "Hand in Glove/Handsome Devil (live)" you surely can't tell me that you have no idea how the next single is going to sound when A) your guitar style is so distinct B) your singer sounds like no one else on the planet C) your music doesn't sound like any other band in the charts. Hey I know let's follow up "Hand in Glove" with a dico funk record or a heavy metal record or whatever. Best to stick this new sound we're creating and carry on with that.

I seem to remember Johhny saying after he had posted a cassette through Morrissey letter box that Morrissey would often swap the bridge for the chorus and other parts of the songs structure to fit his lyric to best. So Morrissey has to be credited with vocal melody at the least.
"NIBBLED TO DEATH BY AN OKAPI"

oliver
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by oliver » 29 Nov 2017, 9:43am

Marky Dread wrote:
28 Nov 2017, 8:34pm
Here's what I do know "Half A Person" was allegedly written on the studio's fire escape. Morrissey would also often right down the title of the song and Marr would try to write music he thought suited the title.
Didn't JM say that was the only song they ever wrote together? I.E. face-to-face in the same room?
Putting a little stick about. Putting the frighteners on flash little twerps

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