"Punk" elitism...

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WestwayKid
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"Punk" elitism...

Post by WestwayKid » 25 Oct 2017, 10:24am

https://www.villagevoice.com/2013/11/21 ... t-anymore/

I know everyone is allowed an opinion - and I respect that...but I really dislike punk elitists. This opinion piece is a prime example and yes - it especially gets me because he lists the Clash as his #1 punk band we should never talk about again.

His reasons are weak.

My sister's boyfriend is a great guy. Hardcore punk fan. He's even in a local hardcore band as a hobby...but he is also very elitist about punk rock. I just find this insane for a genre that is all about thinking for yourself. How are you going to pigeonhole it?

Honestly - a band like the Clash moved beyond "punk" so quickly that I don't really even consider them punks. I find that too constraining for a band that crossed multiple genres: traditional rock, reggae, rockabilly, dub, hip-hop...even disco.

I also love the alternatives he lists. Desperate Bicycles? The Stranglers? The Damned? I'm not hating on these bands - I like most of them (and I love the Buzzcocks). He also apparently considers Ultravox to be a punk band. I really like Ultravox - but if the Clash ain't punk - Ultravox is definitely not punk.

Anyway...just ranting. Ignore me if you want! ;)

I just laugh at people who try so hard to be punk and who try to define something that is really impossible to define.

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Re: "Punk" elitism...

Post by Dr. Medulla » 25 Oct 2017, 10:40am

I've said it before and I'll say it now: fans ruin everything. Fans—that is, the true obsessives—and music writers are the purists who seek to categorize artists and genres, to anoint as saints and cast out as heretics. Every music scene and artist needs fans to build off of and provide capital to survive, but fans are jealous spouses who hate to share with the unworthy and want their love to be true and devoted to them.
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Re: "Punk" elitism...

Post by Inder » 25 Oct 2017, 10:59am

Ah yes, the famous genre of "forced, bad snark."

Also, MJ had a great line about punk ca. '76 in Redemption Song — along the lines of "this whole thing is going to get so dumb in a few months."

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Re: "Punk" elitism...

Post by msza2 » 25 Oct 2017, 11:01am

He's more or less just singling out some of the punk bands who've had commercial success, so it kind of strikes me as arbitrary -- why are the Clash worn out but not the Pistols? Why Green Day and not Blink-182? Why Rancid and not the Offspring?

It's just a silly opinion piece to generate some ad revenue.

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Re: "Punk" elitism...

Post by matedog » 25 Oct 2017, 11:11am

I think we actually talked about this article awhile back.

BTW, what are "hats with chains"?
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

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Re: "Punk" elitism...

Post by WestwayKid » 25 Oct 2017, 12:12pm

matedog wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 11:11am
I think we actually talked about this article awhile back.

BTW, what are "hats with chains"?
I'm pretty sure I've never seen a photo of Joe wearing a hat with chains, ha! ;) :mrgreen:

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Re: "Punk" elitism...

Post by Kory » 25 Oct 2017, 12:45pm

WestwayKid wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 12:12pm
matedog wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 11:11am
I think we actually talked about this article awhile back.

BTW, what are "hats with chains"?
I'm pretty sure I've never seen a photo of Joe wearing a hat with chains, ha! ;) :mrgreen:
I think it's one of those leather biker hats where the chain goes across the base of the brim.

In other news, this article reads as if it was written by an 8th grader, trying super hard to seem aloof and cool. Punk elitism is for kids.
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Table salt (spoon hinge)
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Re: "Punk" elitism...

Post by WestwayKid » 25 Oct 2017, 1:36pm

Kory wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 12:45pm
WestwayKid wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 12:12pm
matedog wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 11:11am
I think we actually talked about this article awhile back.

BTW, what are "hats with chains"?
I'm pretty sure I've never seen a photo of Joe wearing a hat with chains, ha! ;) :mrgreen:
I think it's one of those leather biker hats where the chain goes across the base of the brim.

In other news, this article reads as if it was written by an 8th grader, trying super hard to seem aloof and cool. Punk elitism is for kids.
I knew my share of "kids" like this growing up. I'm sure I displayed some level of punk elitism at some point in my life - maybe 9th grade and then I realized it didn't matter what you listened to. I could be happy listening to the Clash or ELO or Johnny Cash or Stiff Little Fingers or John Lee Hooker. Listening to music doesn't make you cool and anyone trying to do that is missing the point (and I feel bad for them).

I actually like Green Day. They have made (and continue to make) some super catchy music. They're just not true blue "punks" in the closed minds of "real" punks. Who cares? I know I don't.

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Re: "Punk" elitism...

Post by Dr. Medulla » 25 Oct 2017, 1:57pm

WestwayKid wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 1:36pm
I'm sure I displayed some level of punk elitism at some point in my life - maybe 9th grade and then I realized it didn't matter what you listened to.
I suspect everyone here went thru that. Discovering punk for me was like a religious awakening—a musical validation for being frustrated and angry about being awkward and unsure yet knowing that the norms I was being taught were bullshit—so I had the obnoxious zeal of the convert. Cast out all my old music (thank you, Napster, for letting me recover some of the better stuff) and just immersed myself in all these great new sounds. And was contemptuous of anyone who didn't get it. Punk ended up being enough of a springboard into plenty of other genres that that arrogant certainty eventually evaporated. You learn that you can be critical and discerning without acting like an Old Testament prophet.
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Re: "Punk" elitism...

Post by Wolter » 25 Oct 2017, 2:19pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 1:57pm
WestwayKid wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 1:36pm
I'm sure I displayed some level of punk elitism at some point in my life - maybe 9th grade and then I realized it didn't matter what you listened to.
I suspect everyone here went thru that. Discovering punk for me was like a religious awakening—a musical validation for being frustrated and angry about being awkward and unsure yet knowing that the norms I was being taught were bullshit—so I had the obnoxious zeal of the convert. Cast out all my old music (thank you, Napster, for letting me recover some of the better stuff) and just immersed myself in all these great new sounds. And was contemptuous of anyone who didn't get it. Punk ended up being enough of a springboard into plenty of other genres that that arrogant certainty eventually evaporated. You learn that you can be critical and discerning without acting like an Old Testament prophet.
Nothing to add, but I’ll second this.
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Re: "Punk" elitism...

Post by Kory » 25 Oct 2017, 2:33pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 1:57pm
WestwayKid wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 1:36pm
I'm sure I displayed some level of punk elitism at some point in my life - maybe 9th grade and then I realized it didn't matter what you listened to.
I suspect everyone here went thru that. Discovering punk for me was like a religious awakening—a musical validation for being frustrated and angry about being awkward and unsure yet knowing that the norms I was being taught were bullshit—so I had the obnoxious zeal of the convert. Cast out all my old music (thank you, Napster, for letting me recover some of the better stuff) and just immersed myself in all these great new sounds. And was contemptuous of anyone who didn't get it. Punk ended up being enough of a springboard into plenty of other genres that that arrogant certainty eventually evaporated. You learn that you can be critical and discerning without acting like an Old Testament prophet.
I was also militant about punk in 8th grade, but like a normal person, I grew out of it.
Inder:
Absolutely. Here's another collection of words:

Table salt (spoon hinge)
Octopus (Ukraine)
St. Petersburg (arms)
Ginger beer (cauliflower)
Pat Sajak (PSak)
Lamp post (self evident)
Florida Timeshare (ditto)
Heraclitus (EMI)
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Re: "Punk" elitism...

Post by 101Walterton » 25 Oct 2017, 2:43pm

I would say (like a lot of punks 76-78) I was very young and niaive more than elitiste.
I bought in to year zero, no Elvis Beatles or the Rolling Stones.
I hung on every word from Johnny Rotten or Joe. As quickly as punk broke down the barriers the masses created their own rules which the sheep (like me) bought into and tried to be clones of our idols instead of individuals. Too young to really understand.

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Re: "Punk" elitism...

Post by Dr. Medulla » 25 Oct 2017, 3:10pm

Daredevil will get the reference here, but a recurring line on the series Halt and Catch Fire was "Computers aren't the thing. They're the thing that gets us to the thing." Computers are a means of self-realization. Punk should be appreciated the same way. If you regard punk as some kind of end point, well, yeah, you're probably going to be creating structures of purity and snarling at the unwashed for not being as smart as you. But treat it as a perspective, a revelation, and a tool, and it becomes this wonderful way of looking at the world and becoming more curious about possibilities, and more cynical toward bullshit norms. A means, not an end.
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Re: "Punk" elitism...

Post by Heston » 25 Oct 2017, 3:24pm

I like music too much to listen to what anyone says, and I've always been like that. I still get stick from my mates for playing stuff like ABBA and Boney M all the time but I care not one jot. And to be honest I've never been a big fan of punk other than the cream of the crop.
So what does Marconi playing the mamba mean? "Marconi" is referring to the radio itself. It plays a deadly snake. The snake - the mamba - is slithering from the speakers. Ready to kill greedy corporations. Ready to free the world of all that is evil, and to leave behind only the youthful idealism encompassed by the tenets of rock and roll.

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Re: "Punk" elitism...

Post by Dr. Medulla » 25 Oct 2017, 3:40pm

Heston wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 3:24pm
I like music too much to listen to what anyone says, and I've always been like that. I still get stick from my mates for playing stuff like ABBA and Boney M all the time but I care not one jot. And to be honest I've never been a big fan of punk other than the cream of the crop.
Heretic.
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